POLITICS THREAD

Asking for a cease fire a day after saying “you have 2 weeks” then bombing in 2 days… is a the US being a unreliable negotiator and expecting Iran to be better than that.

They both say the other broke the cease fire first.. I don’t think it was ever going to be a thing after all the attacks.. I don’t want to swallow pills nor be involved in another Middle East war for regime change and unverified WMDs, we’ve been doing that my whole life and just got out… annoyed we are being sucked back in.

End of the story they agreed to it and it's not beyond the pale to think they should stick it it. Unless you want to say ok lets just keep striking each other for god knows how long until such a time a more arbitrary time where you expect them to keep it. Thing is from what I gather it was Israel that got most of the blame from Trump because it was obvious even to him what that single rocket meant.

We have to deal with what we have. Bombs dropped and we can't change that so it's either swallow a pill, not retaliate or go back to bombing each other with boots on the ground to follow.

Saying “end of story” is a nice way of ignoring the context of they were just lied to by us.. so why would we expect them to be better?

Its not been a week, I can criticize what I think is a dumb move by the admin that may lead to years of war like before…. the fact that we are at the point of “we have to swallow the pill” of US bases and assets being attacked… is not good imma say.

It doesn't ignore it. It just isn't the most important thing. Deals are very fragile things. If you don't stick to them then they're worthless and there is no point of going to the peace table. The alternative it just to keep fighting. Is that what you want?

I'm sorry if it's a week or two it's not going to be any better. The only difference is more people dying and more chances for it to escalate to something bigger the longer it goes on. This needs to end as quickly as possible.

What are you not getting. It doesn't matter if you don't like that we are in this position now because we are in that position. We can't go back and change what's already been done. No matter how much you don't like it. We can only deal with what we have. You have two options swallow a pill for peace or more fighting. Those are your options. Choose.

Let me tell you that pill wont be any less bitter if you fight more. There will just be more reasons to hurt each other and a greater pile of bodies. If we all don't swallow a pill that war you keep saying you don't want to be in. Ya it will happen. They'll just use the ole "well we tried for peace but they didn't want it" line as an excuse to go harder

It’s is important to be a reliable negotiator… and it is important context that we told them they have 2 weeks to negotiate and then bombed them 2 days later… things like that weaken our negotiating position and international trust.

No.. it does matter, as I am American and the government is supposed to represent me.. it does matter because public sentiment can and has brought us back from the brink of war.. and it being so recent.. mows the time to complain.. like a week ago y’all told me he won’t do it.. now that he did I’m gonna press this “no new wars” president on his promises.

“Swallow US bases and assets being attacked” Trump 2025

… no thank you.. I will be pissed about it because it was unnecessary and dumb for us to get involved in this war to begin with.. creating more enemies and more terrorists is all we accomplished.. that should be spoken against.

Might as well tell teenage me “don’t complain about wars in iraq and Afghanistan, they already started, swallow the pill”… like no.. I’ll speak out against it from beginning to end.

They already negotiated and agreed to it. Now it's the time to keep to what it was agreed to. This only makes it worse. Now he supposedly have an unreliable negotiator but even when you do get something negotiated it wont matter.

No.. it does matter, as I am American and the government is supposed to represent me.. it does matter because public sentiment can and has brought us back from the brink of war.. and it being so recent.. mows the time to complain.. like a week ago y’all told me he won’t do it.. now that he did I’m gonna press

Tell that to the people that will die because you're upset how we got here. We can't change how we got here. You being mad wont give us powers to go back in time. So no in the context of the hand we have how you feel does not matter in changing what was done and the choice we have. We can only influence where we go from here. Go for peace or let more war.

You want to criticize the administration later on for how we got there but don't use that as an excuse to make it harder to get peace.

this “no new wars” president on his promises.

“Swallow US bases and assets being attacked” Trump 2025

… no thank you.. I will be pissed about it because it was unnecessary and dumb for us to get involved in this war to begin with.. creating more enemies and more terrorists is all we accomplished.. that should be spoken against.

SO you'd rather what? More war because you rather point a finger at Trump?

You what bomb Iran again because you can't swallow the pill that they attacked us in retaliation because that's the pill I'm talking about? Accept that we attacked each other. Choose peace instead of retaliation. Nah you'd rather not swallow that pill. You'd rather pretend we can go back it time and change that id you're angry enough. I thought you said you don't want a middle east war? So it's either swallow the pill and urge to not retaliate or agree to peace.

Might as well tell teenage me “don’t complain about wars in iraq and Afghanistan, they already started, swallow the pill”… like no.. I’ll speak out against it from beginning to end.

What a garbage comparison.

There was no pill to swallow to quell the urge to retaliate in Iraq because Iraq didn't attack us.

If the US people had swallowed the pill after being attacked in 9/11 maybe we wouldn't have been so angry that we could have seen they we were being lied too on who did it and not attacked Afganistan.

So have it your way. Iran/US/Israel don't swallows pills to stop the urge to retaliate over getting attacked and we just keep bombing each other until we're full on the blood of out enemies.

Why are you saying supposedly? He in fact said they had 2 weeks to negotiate then bombed them in 2 days.. do you deny this? I’ll bring receipts!!

Later on? Don’t criticize before he does it .. don’t criticize after.. when exactly as an American am I allowed to criticize? Imma go with right now.

More war? Are you even reading what I wrote.. I’ve said a million times I don’t want to be in another Middle East conflict.. he brought us in, I want us out.. is that confusing?

Your last paragraph is astonishing.. yes Iraq attacked us.. after we attacked them.. cuz WMDs… sound familiar?? And no, swallow the twin towers being downed?? No no no. Can I ask, are you American?

I'm saying that after all that happened we got a deal of ceasefire. It was then broken by Iran then Israel. Iran shouldn't have done it and was wrong but it could have been overlooked because it could be believed it wasn't meant to work. Israel then blew it by launching multiple missiles making everything even worse. The ceasefire is the issue we're dealing with at the moment. That other thing is a separate discussion.

Later on? Don’t criticize before he does it .. don’t criticize after.. when exactly as an American am I allowed to criticize? Imma go with right now.

Do you actually read what I say? I literally said you can criticize him. Just don't don't use the missile negotiations breaking down to justify breaking a ceasefire that was agreed on.

More war? Are you even reading what I wrote.. I’ve said a million times I don’t want to be in another Middle East conflict.. he brought us in, I want us out.. is that confusing?

That's my question because we're talking about todays news which is todays news is the ceasefire and Trumps comments on it's breaking? Then every time I say everyone needs to swallow the pill that they were attacked and not retaliate you keep bringing up how mad you are about older news as a shield against me advocating for peace.

Your last paragraph is astonishing.. yes Iraq attacked us.. after we attacked them.. cuz WMDs… sound familiar??

You said it yourself. We attacked first so we were not retaliating. We didn't have to swallow the bitteress of being attacked. We attacked for different reason. So yea its a shitty comparison/\

And no, swallow the twin towers being downed?? No no no. Can I ask, are you American?

Yes I'm American and we went in foolishly. While they were Al-Qaeda we were lied to into also thinking they were Afghans for a long time. The majority were arabs with a couple from other places. It was to make it easier to attack the country and stay in control. We could have been much more surgical in our attacks if we were not drunk on bloodlust. We easily won the war but the insurgency cost us way too much in people, money and reputation with little accomplished. Al-Qaeda is thriving.

Again they both said the other broke the ceasefire.. and I don’t think any serious person really thought that was gonna last.

Its not a separate discussion.. Trump did lie to Iran saying he’s giving them 2 weeks then bombed after 2 days.. if our word means nothing why expect them to keep theres? It’s completely tied to this discussion as it made US a unreliable negotiator in the issue.

I’m not justifying nothing, just acknowledging the reality that when we lie, it makes our position as negotiators weaker.. factually.

I can not want war, and be pissed off that because of our admins stupid decisions we are being attacked and told to swallow this pill… I’m real complicated like that.

It’s the same as this.. we attacked first cuz we said they might have WMDs in the future.. same play book.

Ahhh big difference from your last comment saying we should have swallowed the pill of 911.. concession accepted I guess… I agree we could of be more surgical, and better informed, and not tried to do occupation.

@death4bunnies:

Again they both said the other broke the ceasefire.. and I don’t think any serious person really thought that was gonna last.

It's generally believed Iran did it. It doesn't matter anyway just that it was broken and they're deservingly getting shit for it.. Non of these ceasefires last long in these places but breaking before it even takes affect in a few hours is a different story. Now it's harder to come to the table and easier for boots on the ground. I don't know why you're trying to minimize this as anything other than bad..

Its not a separate discussion.. Trump did lie to Iran saying he’s giving them 2 weeks then bombed after 2 days..

It is a separate discussion because we're talking about the ceasefire, Trumps comments on it's breaking and the stopping of escalation. How to move forward.

We're not talking about how we should have handled stopping the them from getting nuclear weapons which is something we cannot go back and change.

When something else happens new happens that will be the discussion of the moment not this.

I’m not justifying nothing, just acknowledging the reality that when we lie, it makes our position as negotiators weaker.. factually.

It doesn't really because when you come down to it at the end of the day the position of power is based on power. Don't confuse trust with positions of power.

Regardless that's not the discussion right now because it's the ceasefire and how they just shot their credibility in negotiations because they broke the ceasefire.

Now nobody has credibility but hey it's ok because you get to rail against Trump.

I can not want war, and be pissed off that because of our admins stupid decisions we are being attacked and told to swallow this pill… I’m real complicated like that.

For fracks sake nobody is telling you to not be pissed just don't let your emotions get the better of you. Don't lead us into war because you want to go after whomever your target of rage is. Do what's best for the people and don't sacrifice them for revenge. Right now bombing each other isn't best for any of us. Situation might change as different things change but right now we should be working towards peace..

It’s the same as this.. we attacked first cuz we said they might have WMDs in the future.. same play book.

God damn. How can you keep missing the point? The point it about swallowing the pill of each side being attacked to prevent further escalations and end this shit. We're not talking about the reason it happened in the first place. For the millions time you cannot compare the reason we started the Iraq war with swallowing of being attacked so we can go for peace. You can only compare it you thinking it's the reason why we bombed them in the first place. Seeing as how we're NOT talking about why we bombed them in the first place and are only talking about the breaking of the ceasefire. It's a terrible comparison.

Ahhh big difference from your last comment saying we should have swallowed the pill of 911.. concession accepted I guess… I agree we could of be more surgical, and better informed, and not tried to do occupation.

I didn't concede anything. You just dont read what I say and place you own meaning to it.. There was no difference in what I said. I never said we should have swallowed the pill so we would do nothing. i said maybe if we swallowed it we might have seen we were being lied too. That way we could take action based with the truth and a clear head to do what's best for us. Not on uncontrolled emotion that ended up hurting ourselves worse.

Interesting that Al Green tried to lead democrats to vote to impeach Trump over Iran, but was shot down and obliterated like a clay pigeon. 128 democrats actually voted against impeaching Trump!

Many of those dems probably want the war is why. I remember comments from Hillary and other dems making comments about wanting to go to war with Iran. The War Machine owns many people on both sides

It's perfect timing for those dems too because they can get the war they want and blame Republicans for it.

What the United States did recently, was targeting Iran’s three key plutonium enrichment facilities, it was a precise and strategic surgical strike aimed solely at infrastructure posing a clear and present danger, not just to Israel, but to global security as a whole. Iran has openly threatened to "erase" Israel for decades, and now actively launches attacks on civilian areas in Tel Aviv. In stark contrast, Israel has remained focused on neutralizing military and scientific infrastructure and not civilian populations.

This was a decisive move, and credit is due to president Trump and the MAGA-aligned administration for previously laying the groundwork for such strategic clarity. Their approach placed national security, deterrence, and global stability above political appeasement.

Iran has been repeatedly warned by the international community against pursuing nuclear weapons. If Tehran chooses to escalate this into full-scale war, the responsibility lies squarely with their regime. The ball is firmly in their court.

It's also worth noting that only the United States possesses the advanced technology and precision weapons necessary to penetrate deeply fortified underground bunkers. No other Western power currently matches that capability.

As a German, I can only encourage some Americans on this forum to appreciate their country more deeply. It’s a message I also share with my fellow Germans, while the Nazi era remains a dark chapter in human history, it's important to remember that blood was shed by nearly every nation throughout history, no civilization is exempt from conflict or mistakes. What happened prior to 1933, and the conditions that led to it, belong to a generation that is long gone.

When Europeans began colonizing the Americas from north to south, it’s worth acknowledging that many native civilizations were already engaged in constant warfare, conquest, and tribal bloodshed. While Christianity was not without its own flaws at the time, it brought a form of unification and moral framework that, for better or worse, helped end some of those cycles of violence.

That self-hatred has to end.

PS:

As a matter of fact, without the Holy Roman Empire who was former Germany at the heart of Europe, the Ottoman Empire would have overrun the continent. And make no mistake, cuz if that had happened, your mothers and sisters today would be wearing hijabs by force, their hair covered under threat of death, and any deviation from strict religious codes, including homosexuality, would be punishable by public execution, often by beheading or stoning.

This isn’t an exaggeration, it’s a historical reality. The Holy Roman Empire stood as a bulwark that held the line. Europe, North America, Australia, New Zealand as you know it with its freedoms, rights, and modern values, owes a massive debt to those who fought and bled to defend it.

Can someone actually point out what the bible says about homosexuality?

All I see are hypocritical pastors calling themselves out for hypocrisy.

Well it's kind of tricky. I think that Levitcus 20:13 has the passage about a Man lying with another Man they should be put to Death but that's an action of Male Homosexuality. I mean there could be more nuance to it so...

Wait a minute, is this the Religion thread or the Politics thread ?

Atp I don't know myself. Dude above me brought it up.

Ok. It seems like AbstractApeal was talking about the effects of the Roman Empire on Europe and what would have happened if the Ottoman Empire had overrun Europe. He's Right too. Ottoman Empire is basically "The Younger Abrahamic Religion" in terms of Faith and those People do not play about killing Homosexual People. It's Bad. This though would actually be an argument more against what is in the Quran and Hadiths about Homosexuality compared to the Bible as Ottoman was heavily Sunni Islam.

Exactly mate. If it weren’t for the influence of Christian civilization, especially through the rise of Western Europe, women today likely wouldn’t enjoy the rights and protections they do today. Just look at many Muslim-majority nations today, women are still stoned to death, publicly whipped, and tortured by their own brothers or fathers for something as simple as not covering their faces and bodies. In many cases, they’re forced into marriages, sometimes at the age of 13 to men in their 50s, even in the year 2025. The oppression they endure within their own households is horrific by any modern standard, they also do not have access to education.

People often say, “If Germany and the Germans never existed, World War II would have never happened.” But that’s an incredibly narrow view of history. If Germans had never existed, then neither would the Holy Roman Empire, which for centuries was the shield of Christian Europe, led primarily by German kings and kingdoms. Had it not been for their resistance, there’s a very real possibility that the Ottoman Empire would have swept across the continent, burning churches, executing Christian clergy, and erasing the religious and cultural foundations of Europe.

And let’s be honest, if that had happened, the fate of the United States, Canada, Australia, and even Latin America would have been entirely different. Their modern democratic values, rooted in Western civilization and Christian ethics, may never have taken hold. The world as we know it today owes a great deal to the sacrifices and strength of the West and yes, that includes the German powers that once held the line during a very crucial time.

PS:

So, a very raw and uncomfortable question arises, and it demands brutal honesty:

Which would you prefer?

A) The Nazi era

B) A world where your mothers, grandmothers, sisters, and daughters are condemned to a life of terror, subjugation, and suffering , where they have no voice, no freedom, and no future.

Let’s not kid ourselves. The answer is evident to anyone who values even a shred of dignity or civilization.

Perhaps Germans committed a dark chapter in history, like many other civilizations have, but I think Germans did something far greater.

@abstractrapeal:

So, a very raw and uncomfortable question arises, and it demands brutal honesty:

Which would you prefer?

A) The Nazi era

B) A world where your mothers, grandmothers, sisters, and daughters are condemned to a life of terror, subjugation, and suffering , where they have no voice, no freedom, and no future.

I must say, I'm a bit confused at some of this. I don't understand exactly where the "demand" for brutal honesty comes from. And second, I don't understand why these are the only two options to choose from. Where exactly is the forced life of condemnation and all that coming from?

I'm absolutely NOT trying to argue, I'm seriously just trying to understand your point.

Don't worry pal. This point stems from a common claim: “If the Germans had never existed, the Nazi era and World War II would never have happened.” But let’s follow that logic to its full conclusion, buddy.

If there had been no Germans, then the Holy Roman Empire, led by the German crown from 962 AD until 1806, would also never have existed. And without it, Europe would have lacked the military, economic and political force that stood in the way of the Ottoman Empire’s advance into the heart of the continent. It was the Holy Roman Empire, at German-led that halted the expansion of Islamic rule and protected the very core of Christian Europe.

Had that wall of resistance not existed, the Ottomans would have conquered the entire continent, spreading their system across what would later become the modern Western world. That means no Enlightenment, no Western liberal values, and no human rights as we know them.

So yes, without that resistance, the fate of the USA, Canada, Australia, and even parts of South America would look very grim, let alone they would've ever existed. We wouldn't have the societies we live in today where women are free, citizens have rights, and individual liberty is valued.

Europe would have looked far more like the Middle East does today. That’s the hard truth many refuse to admit.

That's why... either A or B. I know it's raw, but it's the truth. The very existence of the Germans is the very reason why things look the way they look today, despite of that dark chapter.

I mean, just take your time, leave your room, see your dear mom, your sisters, how good they look, happy, free and the more you think about it, you will inevitably come to the simple realization "Thank God Germans existed as an ethnic group. At the end of the day, it's my family and possibly my future wife."

-

The reason I’m writing all of this is because of the rising wave of self-hatred we see today, both in the United States and here in Europe. It’s a dangerous mindset that ignores historical context and reduces entire civilizations to their worst moments.

Yes, blood has been shed by every civilization. There is no nation, no culture, no people on Earth without scars. But to focus only on the flaws, while dismissing the immense contributions, sacrifices, and progress made, is not just dishonest, it’s destructive.

Western civilization, for all its imperfections, has given the world unparalleled achievements in science, art, human rights, democracy, philosophy, and technology. From defending freedom to expanding knowledge, the legacy of the West is one of overwhelming net progress and that is something to be proud of.

The message is simple:

We must learn to recognize the good, be thankful for what we have, and appreciate our history, not through blind idealism, but with perspective.

Because what we often take for granted, like basic freedoms, rights, and security, is still a luxury in many parts of the world.

Gratitude doesn’t mean forgetting the past, it means honoring the progress.