Base HM Byakuya vs PA 3T kakashi

@trideca001: overlooking what for kakashi? His strength at the start of shippuden is below sakura who is in turn below jidanbo. You'd have to now prove insane levels of physical growth to even reach byakuya level let alone be above it

@theemperor95: sakura is not below jidanbo lmao.

kakashi>choji>jirobo>5 year old itachi can smash a massive boulder many times his size with a chakra enhanced fist lol.

byakuya has literally none of that, he is mostly a sword and kido master, he ain't a physical beast like Yama or kenpachi.

@feanorr: lifting strength =/= striking strength...not to mention rangiku is irrelevant here even if we accepted that. Ichigo quite literally overpowers jidanbo with ease. Meaning rangiku lifting feat has no bearing here because ichigo outright overpowered him.

Even ignoring how ninja battles aren't settled by pure stats so beating someone doesn't mean you have better stats then them that feat you posted for jirobo is again a lifting feat. That doesn't translate to striking strength. Kakashi at the start of shippuden is canonically below sakura in pure strength who is below jidanbo. Let's see the massive jump in strength that kakashi gets to compare to pre renji fight ichigo much less byakuya. You should actually take kishimoto words to heart when it says that ninja battles aren't straight up fights. More than pure stats goes into it

@trideca001: yes by direct feats she is lower. Itachi feat is neat. BoS chad level lmao so neat.

You must've missed the part where post kenpachi fight ichigo couldn't overpower him. Same ichigo has multiple jumps since he fodderized jidanbo who you still can't get kakashi too

Are you reading and reflecting on what you yourself are saying? Even if the strength in a punch and the strength in lifting something are not literally the same, they are extremely correlated, even if we exaggerated to the extreme and considered Jirobo as a guy who doesn't even know how to punch correctly just because of the strength he demonstrates in weightlifting, there would still be no doubt that his punch would be dozens of times stronger than Byakuya's punch.

And as I said, this form of Jirobo was faced by Chouji who only had the first of his three pills, which is much weaker than the Chouji from the fight with Kakuzu who could already use the techniques of the second pill without even consuming it, this Chouji was strangled by Kakuzu using only one hand and couldn't even escape, it seemed like Kakuzu was suffocating a chicken, on the other hand Kakashi was fighting on equal terms with Kakuzu in taijutsu, perhaps at a disadvantage but still putting up a fight.

If we follow this simple logic, it is not difficult to reach the conclusion that in physical strength:

Kakuzu>/=Kakashi>>>Chouji Shippuden>>Jirobo without the cursed seal>>>>>>>Byakuya

I can't believe I just read that Jidanbo is physically stronger than Sakura from the beginning of Shippuden. I won't be rude, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt.

Could you please bring up the scans that made you believe that Jidanbo is physically stronger than Sakura from the beginning of Shippuden?

@kisukez: Disregarding LS arguments for both sides, I still have Kakashi coming out on top. His scaling comes from fighting Obito 1v1 (in the Kamui dimension).

This Obito could tango with Killer B, Guy, Kakashi himself and KCM Naruto. The important thing being, KCM Naruto at his best could borderline statue the Raikage at his fastest. Even lowballing the latter to lightning speed+ (which is a huge lowball honestly), Naruto's feat would come out sub-rel+ region, which in turn Kakashi scales to.

On the other hand, Gin's Bankai (mach 500-1000) is still a big deal in the early stages of Gotei captains, certainly for Byakuya. Pair that with Kakashi's ninja shenanigans like clones, substitutions and genjutsu, and I don't see any reason why Kakashi can't sneak up to Byakuya. Obviously this wouldn't work if he had his Bankai, which would create a wall that would shred him.

@uchihaghost: Pain arc loses without the LS scaling.

Bleach stans are something else lmao

Jidanbo's "uprooting rocks" feat is literally building/city block lvl

That's embarrassing lol

OT: Pain Arc Kakashi? Honestly don't see the difference, nothing happened(training/power boost) to say there's a big difference. Kakashi still takes it

@majesticstar: giving a scaling is fine, but without presenting the foundation behind it, it doesn’t really work. Like, why is it extremely lowball to consider the Raikage just lightning speed+? What feats even suggest he’s lightning speed to begin with?

I'm not really comfortable with that blitzscaling logic. Especially because the gap between the high end of lightning speed and the high end of sub-relativistic is huge, it wouldn't even make sense for that kind of difference to exist just through a blitz, let alone a ''pseudo blitz''.

About Bleach, which is where you actually gave a number and a feat. No, Gin isn’t that kind of cap for the verse because he lacks the feats to be. The ones he does have are all iffy, and the only direct comparison we have between him and Byakuya doesn’t look good for him:

An extremely injured Byakuya was reacting to Shinso.

Gallery

Gin’s bankai honestly isn’t a cap for almost any relevant character from the HM arc. To prove that and start laying a base for where I think this Byakuya scales, let’s take a look at Candice. She’s a perfect example of a mid tier and has attacks that range from sub-lightning speed to even above lightning speed. Surpassing natural lightning already puts you well above Mach 4000, which is over 4 times faster than Gin’s top speed.

But how do we know how HM Byakuya compares to Candice?

We can figure that out from her fights. Her participation in TYBW wasn’t very productive in that sense, since she fought a half-dead Kenpachi, TS Ichigo and RG Byakuya, all characters who are either stronger or simply unquantifiable compared to the captain during the Huecomundo arc. However, in CFYOW she actually fights someone below the captain’s level. In Volume 2, and again in Volume 3, she’s one of the characters who fight Ikomikidomoe, an ancient Hollow around Baraggan’s level. This Hollow fights Candice and a squad of mid tiers all at once and manages to hold his own.

Now, there’s more to it than I’m saying here, but I’ll wait to see what you respond with and focus only on the fact that Candice, even with Electrocution, completely failed to be relevant in those fights. She even verbally asked Meninas to distract the hollow so she could land a hit (though to be fair, speed isn’t the only thing being implied in that scene, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is being implied as well).

Speedwise it’s SE Ulquiorra < Zommari > Starrk > Baraggan ~ Iko

Byakuya was able to somewhat keep up with the Espada’s speed.

(My internet sucks right now, can’t upload all the scans. If you want them, just let me know and I’ll drop them later)

@kisukez:

giving a scaling is fine, but without presenting the foundation behind it, it doesn’t really work. Like, why is it extremely lowball to consider the Raikage just lightning speed+? What feats even suggest he’s lightning speed to begin with?

Here we see an exhausted, out of chakra Deidara reacting to Sasuke's channelling electricity through Deidara's clay snakes:

Gallery

Note that being low on chakra affect reaction speed (directly stated):

A healthy Deidara at the beginning of the fight found Sasuke's speed to be very quick (he noted so twice):

Gallery

Later on, during Sasuke's invasion of the Gokage summit, V2 Raikage was able to perception blitz a much stronger Sasuke bearing a more powerful eye:

Gallery

Note that the Amaterasu follows Sasuke's eyesight, so this is literally a perception blitz. What's more impressive is that the Raikage was a few meters away from and still managed to circle Sasuke before the latter could notice, making this feat even more impressive.

You also have BOShippuden Sasuke blitzing Naruto and co (who should easily scale above the hypersonic+ feats from part 1 Naruto) from about a dozen meter away, Ulquiorra-style:

Gallery

Following this, we have the aforementioned Raikage, going at his top speed, being basically statued by KCM Naruto:

Gallery

Finally, Obito can keep up with and react to this KCM Naruto (and his peers):

Gallery

Kakashi later goes on to fight Obito one on one, which is my speed scaling.

Raikage being lightning speed as lowball is a common perception on him channelling lightning chakra to enhance his speed, but feats show that he should be faster.

I'm not really comfortable with that blitzscaling logic. Especially because the gap between the high end of lightning speed and the high end of sub-relativistic is huge, it wouldn't even make sense for that kind of difference to exist just through a blitz, let alone a ''pseudo blitz''.

Blitzscaling can be used depending on how far from the chain the character/feat in question is.

About Bleach, which is where you actually gave a number and a feat. No, Gin isn’t that kind of cap for the verse because he lacks the feats to be. The ones he does have are all iffy, and the only direct comparison we have between him and Byakuya doesn’t look good for him:

This "feat" has so many problems. Obviously for one, Shinso < Kamishi no Yari, but that's not even relevant to my main point. The problem is, the way this is portrayed, injured Byakuya is blitzing Aizen here. This makes no lick of sense considering Aizen later on statues a much faster Ichigo and many Gotei13 captains.

However, we know that Gin:

• is a prodigy (much like Byakuya and Toshiro)
• has the fastest Zanpaktou (Byakuya also uses speed for his Shikai/Bankai)
• Ichigo had trouble with Gin who basically toying with him (the same Ichigo who at half Reiatsu was already captain level and is a speedster)

His speed is supposed to be impressive. That's his entire shtick, piercing at blinding speed and dropping the poison in, much like a snake (which he literally compares himself to). Although power cliffing exists (even in Naruto where Kakashi being blitz tier faster than Raikage wouldn't even be conceivable in the prior chapters), Byakuya is not there yet at HM arc.

Gin’s bankai honestly isn’t a cap for almost any relevant character from the HM arc. To prove that and start laying a base for where I think this Byakuya scales, let’s take a look at Candice. She’s a perfect example of a mid tier and has attacks that range from sub-lightning speed to even above lightning speed. Surpassing natural lightning already puts you well above Mach 4000, which is over 4 times faster than Gin’s top speed.

But how do we know how HM Byakuya compares to Candice?

We can figure that out from her fights. Her participation in TYBW wasn’t very productive in that sense, since she fought a half-dead Kenpachi, TS Ichigo and RG Byakuya, all characters who are either stronger or simply unquantifiable compared to the captain during the Huecomundo arc. However, in CFYOW she actually fights someone below the captain’s level. In Volume 2, and again in Volume 3, she’s one of the characters who fight Ikomikidomoe, an ancient Hollow around Baraggan’s level. This Hollow fights Candice and a squad of mid tiers all at once and manages to hold his own.

Now, there’s more to it than I’m saying here, but I’ll wait to see what you respond with and focus only on the fact that Candice, even with Electrocution, completely failed to be relevant in those fights. She even verbally asked Meninas to distract the hollow so she could land a hit (though to be fair, speed isn’t the only thing being implied in that scene, but that doesn’t change the fact that it is being implied as well).

Speedwise it’s SE Ulquiorra < Zommari > Starrk > Baraggan ~ Iko

Byakuya was able to somewhat keep up with the Espada’s speed.

Natural lightning is in the mach 290s no? Unless you are talking about the return stroke, but you gotta prove that. The thing is, I do agree that Espadas are like mid tier Stern level, so they should relative, but I'm not convinced on the mach 4000 stuff.

@majesticstar:

Here we see an exhausted, out of chakra Deidara reacting to Sasuke's channelling electricity through Deidara's clay snakes:

...

This whole segment is fine, except for one crucial thing missing for your argument to work: proving that raiton, or at least Sasuke’s raiton, is lightning speed.

We don’t just take “lightning” = lightning speed the same way and for the same reason we don’t take “light” = light speed.

Lowkey, you’re kinda downplaying Naruto indirectly... just imagine the powerhouses in the series using lightning speed attacks... the verse would be cooked.

This "feat" has so many problems. Obviously for one, Shinso < Kamishi no Yari, but that's not even relevant to my main point. The problem is, the way this is portrayed, injured Byakuya is blitzing Aizen here. This makes no lick of sense considering Aizen later on statues a much faster Ichigo and many Gotei13 captains.

I don’t think Aizen got blitzed at all. IMO it’s clear he just doesn’t care. Either way, I wasn’t trying to use that as proof of anything, because yeah, I see a lot of problems with that feat. It was just to show how poor Gin’s showings are, because regardless of all the issues, having an attack reacted to at such close range by a character that injured is definitely a poor showing.

is a prodigy (much like Byakuya and Toshiro)

Good. Got that potential man certified.

has the fastest Zanpaktou (Byakuya also uses speed for his Shikai/Bankai)

This doesn’t work, at least not the way you’re trying to scale it. You can interpret this statement differently, but no matter which way you choose, any interpretation other than that a zanpakuto’s attack speed depends on its wielder is inconsistent and/or ends up in circular scaling.

One question for you: which attack do you think is faster, a strike from Kamishini no Yari or this Shikai (!) Yama attack?

Ichigo had trouble with Gin who basically toying with him (the same Ichigo who at half Reiatsu was already captain level and is a speedster)

First of all ''captain class'' is a vague term that tells us very little about power level. Their strengths vary so much that saying this isn’t really a strong indicator of anything. Since the beginning of the series, we’ve had absolute powerhouses among captains and at the same time members who are weaker than lieutenants.

About Ichigo, he was mentally nerfed. We know that affects him; the series makes that clear. By the end of their encounter, it was so bad that Gin even said SS arc Ichigo had more value than him.

But yeah, obviously Gin wasn’t serious either, which is why you can’t really take much from his feats. Discussions involving Gin work better in more casual settings where we’re just theorizing stuff rather than in serious debates, due to how unclear his showings are.

His speed is supposed to be impressive. That's his entire shtick, piercing at blinding speed and dropping the poison in, much like a snake (which he literally compares himself to). Although power cliffing exists (even in Naruto where Kakashi being blitz tier faster than Raikage wouldn't even be conceivable in the prior chapters), Byakuya is not there yet at HM arc.

Even if you think the point there was for his bankai to be the peak of speed, it just doesn't work. It makes no sense in the context of the series. Same way 5 gigajoules doesn't work. Same way Tendo’s CD doesn't work. It's just not a statement that holds up in the story like mach 3 in JJK.

Natural lightning is in the mach 290s no? Unless you are talking about the return stroke, but you gotta prove that. The thing is, I do agree that Espadas are like mid tier Stern level, so they should relative, but I'm not convinced on the mach 4000 stuff.

We're probably getting these numbers from the same study. Here:

https://ui.adsabs.harvard.edu/abs/1985JGR....90.8136T/abstract

It's pretty old and, as far as I’ve seen, it’s the most well-known one in this area. It gives a range based on the cases analyzed.

The slowest ones are around 100,000 m/s (Mach 291)

The fastest ones are around 1,400,000 m/s (Mach 4081)

But I should point out that it’s an old article. A more recent one shows that the max speed surpasses Mach 4081:

https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1412/1412.3537.pdf

Why will speed scaling decide the matchup when byakuya does not have anything above pain arc kakashi though in speed?? Atleast we can scale byakuya below mach 500 due to gins blade, so he has a cap as opposed to kakashi

@feanorr: https://n24.mbqgu.org/media/7001/5f458e21f90a20a2430be747/1307289_3166645_1520_1200.png

Sakura hitting the ground

https://n14.mbfpu.org/media/7006/6b1/612405a02aea5f257611c1b6/9116619_1520_2400_300072.webp

Meanwhile jidanbo hitting the ground. He casually uproots far more rock with less effort. I fail to see how sakura beats that

Honestly? Not even Jidanbo's punch was more impressive than Sakura's punch, and not even Sakura's punch can be used as a metric because the distribution of force from a punch is not in the form of an area explosion, the area explosion is a side effect.

There are even Naruto's feats of strength that are light years above Jidanbo's feat, and this same Naruto was held BY Orochimaru's TONGUE as if it were nothing LOL

You can even argue that this version of Naruto had the Kyuubi's chakra upgrade and that Orochimaru is much stronger than Kakashi, but then I can simply respond that a version of Naruto even stronger than this one exchanged blows and was beaten by Sasuke in pure taijutsu and under no circumstances would the Sasuke of that time have any chance of exchanging blows on equal terms with Kakashi.