Which Sith and Jedi can defeat Master Yoda

@darthor:

The best Jedi quote is canon and has no business in legends.

All of them Legends, I don't know where you got the idea they are Canon

EoO Revan >>> SoR Revan >> Revan Reborn >> KOTOR ends Revan > Malak >> Ajunta Pall > Karness Muur >> DT Sidious > ROTS Sidious > Yoda

This has got to be the worst scaling chain I have ever witnessed, congrats for that I suppose.

Upon merely sensing the Muur talisman's power, DarthVader considers the possibility of being able to overthrow Emperor Palpatine using his and Muur's combined power.

DT Vader still had much of Anakins arrogance and considered himself as still being close to his master on his own. His opinion is utterly unreliable and thus, meaningless for scaling, especially when we have an inferior incarnation of Sidious being confirmed by objective OOU sources as > all previous Sith, which obviously includes Muur by definition.

@darthor:

Upon merely sensing the Muur talisman's power, DarthVader considers the possibility of being able to overthrow Emperor Palpatine using his and Muur's combined power. He also seems to regard Muur's as superior to his and even comparable to that of Palpatine's, as he believes that killing Palpatine with Muur's help would be "trading one master for another":

Vader was actually worried about becoming enslaved to the Talisman, not that Muur's power was greater than his own.

He was, he thinks that Muur is superior to him and that if they kill Sidious, he will just be trading masters. And also, superior force users have a tendency to resist objects created by inferior force users. So I doubt that is Vader is truly superior to Muur, he will be afraid of the talisman

Vader at this point was already a significant threat to ROTS Sidious, enough for the latter to set up his own Order 66 contingency just for him and the former to believe that he could kill him soon.

I am aware of all this of course, which is exactly why I used the arguments regarding his superiority to ROTS Sidious

@frozen said:

@uhu123 said:

@frozen:

Bruh... I was hoping the constant pledging, alliances, teachers, fathers will end after the Sheevites left. Apparently it didn't...

JK

@darthor: He was, he thinks that Muur is superior to him and that if they kill Sidious, he will just be trading masters. And also, superior force users have a tendency to resist objects created by inferior force users. So I doubt that is Vader is truly superior to Muur, he will be afraid of the talisman

It's an artefact containing a malevolent and ancient Sith Lord. Him worrying that literally bonding with it might corrupt him doesn't mean he's weaker, it means he doesn't know what would happen or if the Sith has some esoteric tricks up his sleeve. Kun did the exact same thing to Kyp despite him having far greater power at that point in time.

True, but it does mean that Muur is quite powerful enough to match Vader. Kun is quite powerful in Jedi Academy, and can easily contend with Kyp.

I am aware of all this of course, which is exactly why I used the arguments regarding his superiority to ROTS Sidious

Neither are superior to Sheev on their own. Muur certainly isn't. He needed Vader's strength plus his own just to possibly overthrow ROTS Sidious. Any scaling off of Muur doesn't help Revan, as all you're doing is saying a being who provided Vader a small power boost to possibly overthrow Sheev < Ajunta Pall. Even Pall's superiority to Karness is questionable

If Muur is only a small boost for Vader to overthrow Sidious, then there is no reason why Muur will become the new master. This argument simply doesn't make sense. You conceded yourself that Vader is already close to Sidious in ROTS, and Muur is superior to this version of Vader. Also, Vader was not afraid of the power of the Talisman. He knows not to take it. He is afraid that he will have the serve Muur after killing Sidious. And I don't see why this doesn't scale up to Revan, as EoO Revan >>>>>>>>> Muur, and logically above Vader, who is close to Palpatine

Also, Pall is confirmed above Muur as he is the leader of the Exile. Given Muur's treacherous nature, theres nothing to suggests that if he is less powerful than Pall, why he will not take control of the Exile. Heck, even Syn, who is confirmed below Pall, has the ability to make an artifact stated to be twice as powerful as the talisman.

@darthor said:

@frozen said:

@uhu123 said:

@frozen:

Bruh... I was hoping the constant pledging, alliances, teachers, fathers will end after the Sheevites left. Apparently it didn't...

JK

Was just joking lol.

@darthor: My bad I missed the 'JK' part.

@darthor: Once the more the Sheevites shall rule.

@darthor:

True, but it does mean that Muur is quite powerful enough to match Vader.

No it doesn't. If we both want a football and you pull a pepper spray from behind your back and spray me in the eyes, that's not something I can account for. It's not you being better or more skilled, or even comparably so. It took Morne's power plus Muur's plus over a dozen Rakghouls with blasters that could turn Vader with a single scratch just to drive Vader off.

Thats not a fair comparison. An amulet is created based on the inner abilities of the character in the force. If the pepper spray is something that I personally created, and you know I'm coming at you with it (Vader does), then I think that still means that I can win in a normal fight

Also, Morne was actively fighting back against Muur per multiple sources, so Muur in full power is still above Vader

Kun is quite powerful in Jedi Academy, and can easily contend with Kyp.

Not in raw power, he can't.

True, but raw power and real power are very different.

If Muur is only a small boost for Vader to overthrow Sidious, then there is no reason why Muur will become the new master.

I've explained that above.

Me too

This argument simply doesn't make sense. You conceded yourself that Vader is already close to Sidious in ROTS, and Muur is superior to this version of Vader.

Again, not true.

How is it not true? The Talisman is a straight possessing ability. If it can work to opponents far greater, then Valk can possess the Bedlam spirits. Its even harder to possess somebody then to resist it.

Also, Vader was not afraid of the power of the Talisman. He knows not to take it. He is afraid that he will have the serve Muur after killing Sidious.

...Yes, consistent with his fear that he'll be mentally enslaved, not that Muur is more powerful. That's pure headcanon.

True, but if I can beat you to the point that you becomes my servant, I will still say I am more powerful

And I don't see why this doesn't scale up to Revan, as EoO Revan >>>>>>>>> Muur, and logically above Vader, who is close to Palpatine

Because you're trying to apply a no limits fallacy to this.

Let's put it this way. Imagine Sidious is 100, and Vader is - let's say - 80. Vader is already a very real threat to Sidious, and has the power to threaten him. Muur comes along and is - let's say - 10, but 20 if we factor in his forbidden knowledge (which is a significant part of his hype).

Vader takes the talisman, wears it for a time, learns from Muur, and becomes his slave. He and Muur then combine their power - with Vader doing most of the work - and kill ROTS Sidious.

However, to do so, Vader has already surrendered power and control to Muur. We see this in the case of Valkorion and the Outlander, where giving a spirit too much influence or control can let them take over, even though your willpower is too strong for them to dominate:

"My spirit invaded your body in search of a new host. You resisted."

Exactly, Muur is not just the 20, he is superior to this Vader. If not, then theres no reason why he can enslave Vader in the first place

-

The Talisman is naturally corrupting, and possessed by a master of Sith sorcery and alchemy, areas that Vader falls significantly short in. Vader knows of Muur's reputation, and his abilities, from his research.

True, another reason why Muur will beat Vader, his superior force sorcery

What is happening here is that Vader is worried that by physically bonding with the Talisman, Muur may find a way to take control and possess him. That's not a matter of Muur being more powerful. That's a matter of Muur either A) being stronger than he expects, B) being more cunning than Vader expects, or C) using Sorcery and Alchemy to take control.

What? The quote is pretty straightforward. Muur is above Vader, thus, if they kill Palpatine, Muur will become the master.

Also, Pall is confirmed above Muur as he is the leader of the Exile. Given Muur's treacherous nature, theres nothing to suggests that if he is less powerful than Pall, why he will not take control of the Exile.

There's no evidence that Muur was interested in leading the Exiles. Quite the opposite, actually. He was a scientist and was more interested in alchemy. As I recall, there are also strong implications that he either equalled or surpassed Pall.

Can you possibly post some of these implications? Also, Muur is Pall's shadow hands, so I doubt he is more powerful.

Ajunta Pall beheaded their ruler, Hakagram Graush, and claimed the throne as the blood heir to the ancestral King Adas -- and we became his Shadow Hands.

Book of the Sith

Heck, even Syn, who is confirmed below Pall, has the ability to make an artifact stated to be twice as powerful as the talisman.

Going to need a statement for Syn actually succeeding, or doing so without it being forged by or with another Sith.

He probably didn't. I just reread some passages.

On another note, scaling Revan - at least KOTOR Revan - off of Pall is sketchy ground by itself. Pall was a heavily weakened Sith Spirit who avoided using the Dark Side and could barely string together two sentences.

Thats not the basis of my scaling. The entirety of the Exile's powers aside from their Jedi training (which is pretty average) is the Star Map, something that they fear. And the Star Forge is infinitely more powerful than the Star Map and Malak can control it with ease.
Also, Malak >> Kun >> all previous Sith

@darthor:

And I would love to mention that all of these quotes predate SWTOR prime of Revan

As long as it hasn't been retconned they are fair game.

Fine

The reason Vader considers the is because it is true. In the new sourcebook, which is the newest source, Vader was directly stated as being a rival of Sidious. A lot of sources also stated that this is true. Also, if Vader has such a high opinion of himself, that will make him thinking that Muur is superior to himself even more impressive

You are shooting your own argument in the foot, but I will leave that to BoD and you.

Fair enough

Oh, and also, by the time of KOTFE, the Jedi supremacy quotes do not apply to the Outlander

Fair, then I'm still left with this:

Just so you know, in KOTFE, the Outlander is part of the alliance, whether then the Jedi Order.

On a sidenote, it is kind of ridiculous that every TOR character is apparently neither Jedi nor Sith, these devs really tried hard to get around the supremacy statements lmao.

Thats really the point of KOTFE. The Jedi Order and the Sith Order are incompetent in facing the larger threat (Eternal Empire) so they decided to form their own alliance to defeat them. IMO it actually makes sense.

I would argue that SoR Revan is already above Vitiate, not to mention EoO Revan..

Very debatable, many people think the opposite, also doesn't change the fact that Vitiate is sub-Plagueis. You also haven't established why EoO Revan would be significantly > SoR Revan.

Considering that Vitiate at the time of the Novel is already quite close to Revan (I did a blog on this: https://comicvine.gamespot.com/profile/darthor/blog/tor-misconceptions-debunking-vaylin-revan/162856/), and SoR Revan >> That version of Revan, it is quite iron-clapsed

Also, EoO Revan is SoR Revan * 2. In the SoR, Revan was described as broken and weak.

Since Sidious is superior to Yoda, why are you even arguing this?

RotS Sidious and Yoda are so close they are practically equals, maybe Sheev is more powerful by a hair but you are hardly going to find two more evenly matched combatants in all of SW, for all intents and purposes you can treat them as equivalent.

There are a lot more equally paired (Kun and Ulic in Citadel, Son and Daughter etc.)

Also, no, Sidious is considerably superior to Yoda as Yoda just doesn't have it. Not to mention that DT Palpatine is above ROTS Palpatine

Luke, Kyp, Amped Mace(possible stalemate), Krayt, KFV, Orbalisk Bane, Valkorian, DE Sidious, Darth Caedus, Darth Malgus(Onslaught), The Outlander, Arcann, Anakin Skywalker(relative to Yoda), Darth Vader, Kyle Katarn(maybe not a majority), Darth Plaguies(Minority), Jaina Solo(Minority), Revan(Minority), Maul & Dooku(Minority), Prime Obi Wan(Minority or relative)

Everyone i can think of rn