@thedevil98: Probably, yes. But Mike Carey's story of Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel being the creators was retconned. Dan Watters's story is more canon.
@thedevil98: Probably, yes. But Mike Carey's story of Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel being the creators was retconned.
Don't think so. I think Michael and Lucifer are also among the "Hands" in DC verse alongside Perputua who maybe created their own separate multiverse within the DC omniverse. Cause we know multiple "Hands" other than Perpetua exist and there are other multiverses(Dark multiverse) other than the main DC multiverse
@thedevil98: I don't think so. In Lucifer's latest run he was an essential aspect (the shadow) of the Presence. His portrayal is much higher than the Hands or even Michael.
Yea… These scans support more the idea Lucifer became a demon after the fall. In DC cosmology, all Demons are grouped in a place that Created by Perpetua.
This means The Hands are older and higher in cosmology than Lucifer. And this has been DC’s portrayal of him for Years, if you only read the comics in N52, DeathMetal, Dark Knights, Pre crisis, post crisis, Multiversity, and that’s 6 continuities all saying the same thing. The OP’s scans isn’t new information, its repeated data at this point DC even has cosmic maps showing us all this years ago.
@thedevil98: I don't think so. In Lucifer's latest run he was an essential aspect (the shadow) of the Presence. His portrayal is much higher than the Hands or even Michael.
Dan's Lucifer is pretty much a completely different Lucifer than Carey's or Gaiman's and probably much higher on the cosmological hierarchy. As even the Great Darkness was shown to be an aspect of Lucifer under Dan
@thedevil98: Probably, yes. But Mike Carey's story of Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel being the creators was retconned.
Don't think so. I think Michael and Lucifer are also among the "Hands" in DC verse alongside Perputua who maybe created their own separate multiverse within the DC omniverse. Cause we know multiple "Hands" other than Perpetua exist and there are other multiverses(Dark multiverse) other than the main DC multiverse
Michael and Lucifer would be the ones who made the current version of the now unified DC/Vertigo Omniverse, whereas Perpetua would be the ones who made the original version of it.
Michael and Lucifer are categorically distinct from the Hands though.
@thedevil98: I don't think so. In Lucifer's latest run he was an essential aspect (the shadow) of the Presence. His portrayal is much higher than the Hands or even Michael.
Dan's Lucifer is pretty much a completely different Lucifer than Carey's or Gaiman's and probably much higher on the cosmological hierarchy. As even the Great Darkness was shown to be an aspect of Lucifer under Dan
It is different from Carey's, but it is an extension to Gaiman's.
@thedevil98: Probably, yes. But Mike Carey's story of Lucifer, Michael, and Gabriel being the creators was retconned.
Don't think so. I think Michael and Lucifer are also among the "Hands" in DC verse alongside Perputua who maybe created their own separate multiverse within the DC omniverse. Cause we know multiple "Hands" other than Perpetua exist and there are other multiverses(Dark multiverse) other than the main DC multiverse
Michael and Lucifer would be the ones who made the current version of the now unified DC/Vertigo Omniverse, whereas Perpetua would be the ones who made the original version of it.
Michael and Lucifer are categorically distinct from the Hands though.
The Hands were stated in the scans to be the ones who shaped the Source's energy into the big bang. Michael and Lucifer don't have a role in this.
It is interesting that scans describe how everything originated and was born after time started, but, like the Hands, Lucifer and Michael were not mentioned how or when they came to being
oh lucifer is now below perpetua the jobber, it over
I don't think DC ever mentioned perpetua to be more powerful.
Maybe you should read more comics
This puts her higher than Lucifer. This is Lucifer
A being who gets shut down in Hell. while Perpetua massively scales above Hell, and all the hell pantheon as she created the very constructs which contain them she’s higher in hierarchy.
Perpetua creating Lucifer’s Prison
Hell is a realm inside her hand. She is massively above Lucifer
It mentions Michael transforming one of his brethren into an aspect of God. So he is definitely Demiurgos. Silver City being at the heart of creation is no coincidence. Add in Lucifer being suited up and it’s a done deal.
It is interesting that scans describe how everything originated and was born after time started, but, like the Hands, Lucifer and Michael were not mentioned how or when they came to being
Yeah, I think that part of the inconsistency between the 2 verses will never be cleared.
Wow, I remember reading about Lucifer scaling above the entirety of DC's cosmology including the Source and being able to blink the whole creation by accident not so long ago. Seems like that's certainly not the case anymore, if it even ever was so. Either way good to see at least some clarity and order being brought to DC's messy cosmology, hopefully it doesn't end up getting retconned every other tuesday like Marvel's.
Wow, I remember reading about Lucifer scaling above the entirety of DC's cosmology including the Source and being able to blink the whole creation by accident not so long ago. Seems like that's certainly not the case anymore, if it even ever was so. Either way good to see at least some clarity and order being brought to DC's messy cosmology, hopefully it doesn't end up getting retconned every other tuesday like Marvel's.
He always was above everyone except for the Presence, who is stronger than him. They couldn't be more clear about that. That's the case in Vertigo at least.
oh lucifer is now below perpetua the jobber, it over
I don't think DC ever mentioned perpetua to be more powerful.
Maybe you should read more comics
This puts her higher than Lucifer. This is Lucifer
A being who gets shut down in Hell. while Perpetua massively scales above Hell, and all the hell pantheon as she created the very constructs which contain them she’s higher in hierarchy.
Perpetua creating Lucifer’s Prison
Hell is a realm inside her hand. She is massively above Lucifer
Wow, I remember reading about Lucifer scaling above the entirety of DC's cosmology including the Source and being able to blink the whole creation by accident not so long ago. Seems like that's certainly not the case anymore, if it even ever was so. Either way good to see at least some clarity and order being brought to DC's messy cosmology, hopefully it doesn't end up getting retconned every other tuesday like Marvel's.
He always was above everyone except for the Presence, who is stronger than him. They couldn't be more clear about that. That's the case in Vertigo at least.
Well, he was also weaker than his brother Michael at the very least, plus things like retcons exist. Remember when Living Tribunal was supposed to be second only to TOAA in Marvel? Look where he's now. Lucifer isn't immune to getting retconned like everyone else, and it seems like the new cosmology doesn't acknowledge his and Michael's roles in shaping of the creation, instead attributing it to the Hands.
Wow, I remember reading about Lucifer scaling above the entirety of DC's cosmology including the Source and being able to blink the whole creation by accident not so long ago. Seems like that's certainly not the case anymore, if it even ever was so. Either way good to see at least some clarity and order being brought to DC's messy cosmology, hopefully it doesn't end up getting retconned every other tuesday like Marvel's.
He always was above everyone except for the Presence, who is stronger than him. They couldn't be more clear about that. That's the case in Vertigo at least.
Well, he was also weaker than his brother Michael at the very least,
When was Lucifer shown explicitly weaker than Michael?If you're talking about the war in heaven, Michael only won because Presence himself backed him, in their later rematches where Presence was absent, Lucifer either straight up killed Michael or Michael blew himself up in an AoE releasing all the power of creation which Lucifer no sold without a scratch twice and even protected Elaine from it.
plus things like retcons exist. Remember when Living Tribunal was supposed to be second only to TOAA in Marvel? Look where he's now. Lucifer isn't immune to getting retconned like everyone else, and it seems like the new cosmology doesn't acknowledge his and Michael's roles in shaping of the creation, instead attributing it to the Hands.
Yeah, but so far the only retcon was the main DC multiverse was created by the Hands instead of the Angel duo. It still doesn't change all the other established feats and statements that Lucifer has. And nowhere was it stated that the Hands are stronger or equal to Lucifer or that he is no longer the second strongest after the Presence.
@aaronyogurt: It's arguable between him and Michael, I don't know if the war in heaven counts since Michae had the Presence at his back.
They are also not the creators in current Vertigo apparently, but they are still in the same place in the hierarchy, and he is still the shaper of suns.
When was Lucifer shown explicitly weaker than Michael?If you're talking about the war in heaven, Michael only won because Presence himself backed him, in their later rematches where Presence was absent, Lucifer either straight up killed Michael or Michael blew himself up in an AoE releasing all the power of creation which Lucifer no sold without a scratch twice and even protected Elaine from it.
I don't think the Presence backing him means anything unless he was explicitly amping him above his normal levels or personally interfering in their fight. Michael was confident he could throw Lucifer out of Heaven again without Presence's help, and Lucifer didn't seem to disagree with that. As for their other fight, both were heavily weakened at the time, with Michael being at a disadvantage from having his wings broken and still holding back against Lucifer.
Overall, from their accolades Michael consistently seems to be depicted as the more powerful of the two, with him being granted God's power, while Lucifer got God's will, every description of him focusing on his power, even in comparison to Lucifer, him being chosen as God's second, him being the reason why the Heaven won the war, him being able to end the war single-handedly, etc. And yeah, Lucifer did no-sell the release of his creation power, but that's because that's literally his entire purpose from the start, to be able to shape and manipulate that power. When they actually fought, even a seriously weakened Michael could still harm him with a blast, which indicates that in a combat scenario Lucifer doesn't have the same level of resistance to it.
Yeah, but so far the only retcon was the main DC multiverse was created by the Hands instead of the Angel duo. It still doesn't change all the other established feats and statements that Lucifer has. And nowhere was it stated that the Hands are stronger or equal to Lucifer or that he is no longer the second strongest after the Presence.
Well, if they weren't the ones responsible for the creation, that would mean that they're a part of the creation like everything else and therefore were also created by Hands. The Silver City is also at the heart of creation now as opposed to being outside of it. I think even if it isn't so clear-cut, it at least challenges the previously established hierarchy. We'll see I guess, but for now I'd hesitate to put Lucifer above the Hands and Perpetua, much less the Source.
oh lucifer is now below perpetua the jobber, it over
I don't think DC ever mentioned perpetua to be more powerful.
Maybe you should read more comics
This puts her higher than Lucifer. This is Lucifer
A being who gets shut down in Hell. while Perpetua massively scales above Hell, and all the hell pantheon as she created the very constructs which contain them she’s higher in hierarchy.
Perpetua creating Lucifer’s Prison
Hell is a realm inside her hand. She is massively above Lucifer
*Sigh*
DC power system doesn't work like how you're making it.
Firstly,
Maybe you should read more comics
Rude, and very unnecessary but that's CV, everyone with their lousy attitude.
while Perpetua massively scales above Hell, and all the hell pantheon as she created the very constructs which contain them she’s higher in hierarchy.
You do know that the Presence, the supreme being in DC even after death metal is in the sphere of the Gods. Perpetua got connective energy from the source she didn't manufacture it from nowhere. DC has also made it clear that you can jump into her level or higher with different means like wonder woman using her magical lasso to unlock truth and funnel connective energy from heroes to battle and defeat TDK. Connective energy from heroes>>>>>>>> Perpetua. Magic lasso>>>>> Perpetua, magic>>>>>> perpetua.
Hell is a realm inside her hand. She is massively above Lucifer
So, is heaven, I guess that she's massively above the presence.
@cosmic_reign what's accurate? Considering the fact that the connective energy in superheroes is far above perpetua she being above what is in the multiverse is just not accurate.
@cosmic_reign what's accurate? Considering the fact that the connective energy in superheroes is far above perpetua she being above what is in the multiverse is just not accurate.
The entire post is accurate to what DC just paneled and published. I could(ofc Not tho) consider your thought/opinion as a downgrade to DCs Cosmology considering the context DC just released.
Cray-cray how DC kinda Confirms MY long lasting thoughts on its Cosmology. 😎
@cosmic_reign what's accurate? Considering the fact that the connective energy in superheroes is far above perpetua she being above what is in the multiverse is just not accurate.
The entire post is accurate to what DC just paneled and published.
I wasn't talking about how the multiverse was created, as far as who's more powerful between Perpetua and Lucifer, DC has never made any statement about that, and his feats have not been retconed.
I could(ofc Not tho) consider your thought/opinion as a downgrade to DCs Cosmology considering the context DC just released.
Bruh, what are you talking about? What downgrade?
Cray-cray how DC kinda Confirms MY long lasting thoughts on its Cosmology. 😎
I wasn't talking about how the multiverse was created, as far as who's more powerful between Perpetua and Lucifer, DC has never made any statement about that, and his feats have not been retconed.
Bruh, what are you talking about? What downgrade?
So, you predicted the hands?
Context can work in mysterious ways!
You tell me!? "Superheroes connective energy is far above Perpetua" Okay!!
Nah, I didn't predict the Hands Lol... I CERTAINLY understood their position in DC Cosmology the moment I read their on panel appearances. I've even supported Perpetua/(Hands) in a plethora of misc threads for that point.
I wasn't talking about how the multiverse was created, as far as who's more powerful between Perpetua and Lucifer, DC has never made any statement about that, and his feats have not been retconed.
Bruh, what are you talking about? What downgrade?
So, you predicted the hands?
Context can work in mysterious ways!
How?
You tell me!? "Superheroes connective energy is far above Perpetua" Okay!!
It can only be a downgrade if DC said that perpetua was more powerful but they never said that.
Nah, I didn't predict the Hands Lol... I CERTAINLY understood their position in DC Cosmology the moment I read their on panel appearances. I've even supported Perpetua/(Hands) in a plethora of misc threads for that point.
Ngl idk why DC made this it would have been like a 100% times better
If they just kept vertigo away from their cosmology mess
And i think it's clear for anyone here who isn't trying to spread any headcannon or misinformation that Lucifer is still the second strongest character tied with Michael or not
His feats & statements are far above the hands or ms got slammed by planets
And there's no statement not from DC itself talking about perpetua or the hands being equal as his level or anything it's just
If they just kept vertigo away from their cosmology mess
But Vertigo was canon to DC so it has always been part of DC's mess lol
And i think it's clear for anyone here who isn't trying to spread any headcannon or misinformation that Lucifer is still the second strongest character tied with Michael or not
I think currently that would be the great darkness
And there's no statement not from DC itself talking about perpetua or the hands being equal as his level or anything it's just
Not sure how I feel about Lucifer/Micheal scaling, but Perpetua being above everyone else makes sense, with only Dr Manhattan possibly rivalling her.
I never read Vertigo stuff but I always assumed Lucifer and Micheal were top tier only because everyone else says so, and personally it does make sense they're second only to the Presence/Source since they're both a part of him if I'm correct.
Not sure how I feel about Lucifer/Micheal scaling, but Perpetua being above everyone else makes sense, with only Dr Manhattan possibly rivalling her.
I never read Vertigo stuff but I always assumed Lucifer and Micheal were top tier only because everyone else says so, and personally it does make sense they're second only to the Presence/Source since they're both a part of him if I'm correct.
Lucifer and Michael should still be second only to the Presence/Source. The only retcon being done here is that they didn't create the main DC multiverse. But that doesn't take away anything from their other feats like the Mansion of Silence feat etc. Nor does it say that the Hands are superior to the Angel duo
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