Ah yes, the exact same person involved with the same unreliable interview concerning Beerus and Broly concerning UI Goku's growth - this person is involved with graphic design, not the story of the plot. Literally the entire context of the interview is based of him designing, you guessed it, certain characters. Who would have thought that a non-credible person would produce non-credible statements? How strange!
Anyways, the manga directly contradicts any notion that the five are on par with each other. UE Vegeta and Orange Piccolo are horrendously outclassed by the other three by the merit of their feats. The only person who is comparable to MUI Goku is Beast Gohan.
But I guess you could say each of the fighters has some unique gimmick to make them near peers.
Gohan has the biggest sheer stats, Goku has UI and skill, Piccolo has namekian abilities, Vegeta gets stronger from damage and Broly gets stronger over time period.
Also this confirms Black Frieza is above current Broly I guess?
Ah yes, the exact same person involved with the same unreliable interview concerning Beerus and Broly concerning UI Goku's growth - this person is involved with graphic design, not the story of the plot. Literally the entire context of the interview is based of him designing, you guessed it, certain characters. Who would have thought that a non-credible person would produce non-credible statements? How strange!
Anyways, the manga directly contradicts any notion that the five are on par with each other. UE Vegeta and Orange Piccolo are horrendously outclassed by the other three by the merit of their feats. The only person who is comparable to MUI Goku is Beast Gohan.
Don't tell me you're still mad about Beerus being the top dog cat bro...
According to who? Your mother's father's grandson?
Lol, I guess that's a yes. Give it up man. With Toriyama dead and Super on hiatus Beerus will remain unsurpassed for a looong time outside of stuff like Heroes.
Assuming he's the strongest until proven otherwise is based on a fallacy, because the burden of proof is on you to argue why he's the strongest. And unfortunately for you, Beerus does not have the feats to back this claim up.
There's a reason why I don't take Beerus stans seriously anymore.
Assuming he's the strongest until proven otherwise is based on a fallacy, because the burden of proof is on you to argue why he's the strongest. And unfortunately for you, Beerus does not have the feats to back this claim up.
There's a reason why I don't take Beerus stans seriously anymore.
The feats argument doesn't work because by the same logic Goku is above GP and the angels as well. Goku has been stated inferior in multiple sources multiple times. WoG interviews, manga, movie, story intent, official websites, you name it. Goku has never surpassed Beerus in canon and probably never will.
The feats argument doesn't work because by the same logic Goku is above GP and the angels as well
?????? Goku has no feats that puts him above the GP and the Angels, what are you on about?
But he has better feats than Beerus does at least.
Goku has been stated inferior in multiple sources multiple times. WoG interviews, manga, movie, story intent, official websites, you name it. Goku has never surpassed Beerus in canon and probably never will.
Aka, your headcanon.
Toyotoro isn't word of god, he's involved with character visual design rather than the story, this is literally highlighted at the start of every manga chapter. Victory Uchida (the person who brought up Beerus in that interview) definitely isn't word of god, by admission he has the credibility of Yamcha. Dosen't help your case that whatever nonsense they said is contradicted by the manga anyways.
Manga puts Goku above Beerus because Goku has better feats than Beerus does. Every feat Beerus has to his name, even Jiren has replicated and surpassed. Meaning that Beerus is set up to lose against the actual top dogs.
Story intent puts Goku above Beerus on the simple basis that Ultra Instinct is touted as the supreme, unbeatable technique by Whis and Merus, and Goku wields it far better than Beerus does, even in Omen. On top of that, Destroyer level power has long been surpassed since the ToP given that Jiren is no longer the top dog, so if you're gonna make this claim about Jiren, the same logically applies to Beerus.
There are nothing on official websites that puts Beerus above Goku.
The last time the movie puts Beerus above Goku was in RoF, and Beerus being above SSG and SSB Goku =/= he is better than MUI Goku.
So exactly what 'evidence' do you have to argue that Beerus is the strongest? Because I know all of them and they have all been systematically debunked, right here:
Toyotoro interview: Person who brought up Beerus (Uchida) has the credibility of Yamcha by admission. No explicit specification on how they can make Goku's UI more perfect. Contradicted by the manga, because the context is regarding improving the accuracy of already Perfected UI, and Beerus' UI is far from perfected (let alone Broly who at the time does not know what UI is).
Eternal Dragon wish for Granolah to be above everyone except the Gods: Argument from bad faith and mental gymnastics, since Granolah can still be argued to be above certain gods through other metrics. Narratively does not work too since Granolah would also be below Dende and the Supreme Kais, who are the Gods of Earth and Creation respectively, which does not make sense.
Beerus claiming that his power has no limit to Vegeta: Obvious hyperbole because we seen the limits of his power during the Zen Exhibition Match. Also context matters, he said it to say why he is so proficient with Destruction, which, newsflash - also applies to every other Gods of Destruction.
Beerus being above Moro-73 because he offered to aid Goku: Argument from bad faith and dishonestly interpreting his words. Offering to assist Goku does not necessarily mean that he can actually make the difference. He said that he had to make it quick not because he had the power to do it, but because he knew that such an act would be a taboo amongst Destroyers - context matters.
Black Frieza V Jump blurb: Third party source, not an official source, and people conveniently forget that Beerus is far from the only Destroyer out there. Contradicted by the events of the Zen Exhibition Match, as it would also mean that Frieza would be below Belmod, another Destroyer, and by extension, Jiren. Which makes zero sense because Jiren had a far harder time against UI Omen Goku than Frieza did.
Beerus claiming that he is stronger than Goku: Being an egostistical talker dosen't make him all mighty, especially when Goku did not even directly concede any form of inferiority. Does not help Beerus' case that he does not have the feats to back his words up.
The feats argument doesn't work because by the same logic Goku is above GP and the angels as well
?????? Goku has no feats that puts him above the GP and the Angels, what are you on about?
But he has better feats than Beerus does at least.
GP has no feats above Goku
Goku has been stated inferior in multiple sources multiple times. WoG interviews, manga, movie, story intent, official websites, you name it. Goku has never surpassed Beerus in canon and probably never will.
Aka, your headcanon.
Toyotoro isn't word of god, he's involved with character visual design rather than the story, this is literally highlighted at the start of every manga chapter. Victory Uchida (the person who brought up Beerus in that interview) definitely isn't word of god, by admission he has the credibility of Yamcha. Dosen't help your case that whatever nonsense they said is contradicted by the manga anyways.
Wrong. Toyotaro writes majority of the manga just like Toei wrote majority of the anime. All Toriyama did is provide basic story notes and in every interview he encouraged Toyotaro to be more and more independent. For manga canon Toyotaro is just as much of a WoG as Toriyama was.
Victory Uchida is an editor, he actually does have some influence on the story. If not for an editor forcing Toriyama's hand back in the 90s we would have never gotten Cell. And if anything he said was untrue Toyo would jump in and correct him. He wasn't wrong and the manga confirms it multiple times.
Manga puts Goku above Beerus because Goku has better feats than Beerus does. Every feat Beerus has to his name, even Jiren has replicated and surpassed. Meaning that Beerus is set up to lose against the actual top dogs.
Again, the feat argument doesn't work because by the same twisted logic Goku > GP. Hell, the feat argument is debunked by Vegeta surpassing Jiren but still being inferior to Beerus.
Story intent puts Goku above Beerus on the simple basis that Ultra Instinct is touted as the supreme, unbeatable technique by Whis and Merus, and Goku wields it far better than Beerus does, even in Omen.
Debunked in Granolah arc where it's stated techniques of GoDs like hakai can rival UI. Vegeta learning the very basics of hakai made him a peer of UI Goku.
On top of that, Destroyer level power has long been surpassed since the ToP given that Jiren is no longer the top dog, so if you're gonna make this claim about Jiren, the same logically applies to Beerus.
That's like saying super saiyan 1 power has been surpassed in android arc meaning Cell can beat current SSJ Goku. Not all GoDs are equal with Beerus and Quitela happening to be the strongest ones, Jiren never surpassed them.
The last time the movie puts Beerus above Goku was in RoF, and Beerus being above SSG and SSB Goku =/= he is better than MUI Goku.
From Superhero's Goku's POV all GoDs still have "amazing power".
So exactly what 'evidence' do you have to argue that Beerus is the strongest? Because I know all of them and they have all been systematically debunked, right here:
"debunked", as in I will cover my ears and pretend they don't exist, yea I know, I know, we've been over this already.
1. Writer and editor of the manga confirm Beerus is above Goku in an interview back in Moro arc which aligns with Beerus not being bothered with Moro as a threat.
2. Granolah's wish to be the strongest doesn't involve Beerus but surpasses Goku.
3. Beerus admits superiority as recently as Superhero, Goku doesn't even begin to correct him, he knows he's inferior.
4. Black Frieza, character that blitzed and one shoted Goku is still is close to Beerus power but not quite there yet.
And yes, a magazine from the partial owners of the IP is valid, obviously.
Toyotoro interview: Person who brought up Beerus (Uchida) has the credibility of Yamcha by admission. No explicit specification on how they can make Goku's UI more perfect. Contradicted by the manga, because the context is regarding improving the accuracy of already Perfected UI, and Beerus' UI is far from perfected (let alone Broly who at the time does not know what UI is).
Eternal Dragon wish for Granolah to be above everyone except the Gods: Argument f
rom bad faith and mental gymnastics, since Granolah can still be argued to be above certain gods through other metrics. Narratively does not work too since Granolah would also be below Dende and the Supreme Kais, who are the Gods of Earth and Creation respectively, which does not make sense.
Beerus claiming that his power has no limit to Vegeta: Obvious hyperbole because we seen the limits of his power during the Zen Exhibition Match. Also context matters, he said it to say why he is so proficient with Destruction, which, newsflash - also applies to every other Gods of Destruction.
Beerus being above Moro-73 because he offered to aid Goku: Argument from bad faith and dishonestly interpreting his words. Offering to assist Goku does not necessarily mean that he can actually make the difference. He said that he had to make it quick not because he had the power to do it, but because he knew that such an act would be a taboo amongst Destroyers - context matters.
Black Frieza V Jump blurb: Third party source, not an official source, and people conveniently forget that Beerus is far from the only Destroyer out there. Contradicted by the events of the Zen Exhibition Match, as it would also mean that Frieza would be below Belmod, another Destroyer, and by extension, Jiren. Which makes zero sense because Jiren had a far harder time against UI Omen Goku than Frieza did.
Beerus claiming that he is stronger than Goku: Being an egostistical talker dosen't make him all mighty, especially when Goku did not even directly concede any form of inferiority. Does not help Beerus' case that he does not have the feats to back his words up.
You're basically arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. You're deflecting with irrelevant omnipotent characters and still can't answer the damn question: What feats does Beerus have to his name that makes him the strongest?
This is a basic question in fictional debates but when it comes to Beerus of all characters you'd answer this evasively? The fact that you can't answer a simple question is extremely telling that you can't accept the truth that Beerus simply is not the top dog like you pretend he is.
Toyotaro writes majority of the manga
Its amazing how you can be so confidently wrong about something, when a simple skim of the chapter's start outlines Toyotoro's responsibilities in comparison to Toriyama. His responsibilities are outright stated to be doing the graphic design of characters and drawing the panels.
Dosen't seem like Toyotoro wrote the manga to me
He himself admitted that he knows far less about the plot compared to Toriyama, and with Toriyama being the main person who composed the plot.
Victory Uchida is an editor, he actually does have some influence on the story. If not for an editor forcing Toriyama's hand back in the 90s we would have never gotten Cell. And if anything he said was untrue Toyo would jump in and correct him. He wasn't wrong and the manga confirms it multiple times.
This was literally what was stated in a October 14 V Jump interview with Uchida regarding power balance of story meetings:
"Power balance" of story meetings: Toriyama: 100 million; Toyotaro: 10 million: Uchida: -100
A second meeting metaphor: Toriyama: Goku; Toyotaro: Vegeta; Uchida: Yamcha
It is clearly stated that Toyotoro has far less credibility than Toriyama, thus his words are hardly words of god.
Also, bouncing off what Uchida said =/= Toyo fully agrees with him. If Toyo agrees with the take, he needs to verbally and actively express it. Which he didn't here. And neither did Goku when Beerus claimed to be stronger than him, Goku did not verbally admit that Beerus is stronger, he simply said that he wasn't interested in Beerus' position, that has nothing to do with admitting inferiority.
I also love how you keep reiterating how the 'manga confirmed it' many times when you completely failed to address the basic point why the manga contradicts it - because the context is based on refining the accuracy of Goku's already Perfected Ultra Instinct, therefore it can't apply to Beerus or Broly. Hardly a coincidence coming from someone with the credibility of -100.
Again, the feat argument doesn't work because by the same twisted logic Goku > GP. Hell, the feat argument is debunked by Vegeta surpassing Jiren but still being inferior to Beerus.
I don't know why you keep going on and on about 'feat arguments' when feats are among the strongest forms of evidence to justify a character's strength. Like I said earlier, asking for feats is a basic question in literally any fictional debate. It's 4 posts in and you haven't listed a single feat Beerus has to his name that makes him the strongest.
Also, Jiren stomps Vegeta. Vegeta barely learned the ropes on Destruction, he isn't beating someone who is superior to beings who mastered Destruction.
Debunked in Granolah arc where it's stated techniques of GoDs like hakai can rival UI. Vegeta learning the very basics of hakai made him a peer of UI Goku.
??????
All Beerus said is that UI isn't the only technique of the gods. That dosen't change the fact that UI is the superior technique to UE, or invalidate Whis' statements about UI being the rarest and strongest technique in the mythos.
Vegeta learning the basics of an inferior technique makes him astronomically inferior to Goku, who mastered the superior technique. It dosen't take much to understand something this basic.
That's like saying super saiyan 1 power has been surpassed in android arc meaning Cell can beat current SSJ Goku. Not all GoDs are equal with Beerus and Quitela happening to be the strongest ones, Jiren never surpassed them.
The events of the Zen Exhibition Match quite literally disagrees with you, the fact that they were all down or badly bruised shows that they are all relative to each other. Even if Beerus and Quitela are among the stronger Destroyers, the rest definitely are definitely comparable to them.
Not to mention Belmod, who is powerful enough to seriously damage Beerus to the point that a couple of his basic energy card attacks can make Beerus' face and arms bleed, and he was able to render Beerus helpless in an Imprisonment Ball. If a few ki blasts were enough to cause that much damage to Beerus, then Belmod is at least on par with Beerus (or even above). Jiren being above Belmod mean that by extension, the other 11 Destroyers would also be weaker than him.
From Superhero's Goku's POV all GoDs still have "amazing power".
Yes and he says the same when it comes to Jiren and Broly too. But that dosen't change the fact that Goku is far above them based on a basic feat comparison. Calling them amazing =/= they are above him.
"debunked", as in I will cover my ears and pretend they don't exist, yea I know, I know, we've been over this already.
Pretend they don't exist? My friend, I invested paragraphs addressing each and every one of them and why those forms of 'evidence' don't hold weight, that's literally anything but 'pretending they don't exist'.
I find it hilarious that I spelled out your arguments beforehand, and you walked right into it with your response using the same mental gymnastics and eyesore bad faith arguments that I knew you would use, without making any attempt to address the spoiler block at all.
Once again, proving why Beerus stans can't be taken seriously. Your dishonest debating practices are frankly getting tiring, manipulating statements using fallacies and bad faith interpretations to suit your delusional narrative that 'Beerus is the strongest', instead of addressing Beerus' actual feats and abilities.
I might as well be debating a Flat Earther, because they debate the same way you people do: Just like how you people dance and avoid the reality that Beerus' actual feats and abilities aren't up to par with the best, Flat Earthers dance and avoid the reality that scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports the Earth is round. Just like how Flat Earthers create an alternate reality that the Earth is flat, you stans create a fan wanked version of a character that isn't based on his actual abilities, and pretend it's the canonical version.
But you can have the last word, I came to realise that debating a Beerus stan is a complete waste of my time and I won't be entertaining this any further.
So catching Beerus and Quitela's fists and being completely unaffected by Ruumshi's Battle Roar aren't feats enough for you?
Aren't you arguing Goku was above Beerus as far back as ToP, if that's the case those feats would not be above Goku
Or him being touted as an omnipotent being who wields Ultra Instinct that is far superior to even Whis'?
Statement
Or being able to erase Merus from existence from the comfort of his own palace, knowing immediately when Merus broke the Angel Laws despite being universes apart, and then reviving him afterwards?
Hax
And unlike Goku and Beerus, the GP has never been involved in a serious battle and thus never had to exert himself, meaning that he is capable of much more when push comes to shove?
Neighter have Beerus outside of Quitela who is his equal. He literally stomped both Goku and Vegeta every time they fought.
Toyotaro writes majority of the manga
Its amazing how you can be so confidently wrong about something, when a simple skim of the chapter's start outlines Toyotoro's responsibilities in comparison to Toriyama. His responsibilities are outright stated to be doing the graphic design of characters and drawing the panels.
Dosen't seem like Toyotoro wrote the manga to me
He himself admitted that he knows far less about the plot compared to Toriyama, and with Toriyama being the main person who composed the plot.
Like I said, Toriyama writes the basic story premise and notes, with Toei and Toyotaro filling out the blanks. That's why there's so many differences between both mediums. It's been know fact ever since Super started, don't play dumb.
This was literally what was stated in a October 14 V Jump interview with Uchida regarding power balance of story meetings:
"Power balance" of story meetings: Toriyama: 100 million; Toyotaro: 10 million: Uchida: -100
A second meeting metaphor: Toriyama: Goku; Toyotaro: Vegeta; Uchida: Yamcha
It is clearly stated that Toyotoro has far less credibility than Toriyama, thus his words are hardly words of god.
Obviously Toyotaro didn't hold the authority of original creator of the series but even 1/10th of the authority is enough for his word to matter, especially since Toriyama never came out and said "well actrually Toyotaro and Uchida are wrong, Goku is definitely stronger than Beerus and Broly by now". There's nothing that contradicts that WoG and multiple statements and story intent that reinforces it.
Also, bouncing off what Uchida said =/= Toyo fully agrees with him. If Toyo agrees with the take, he needs to verbally and actively express it. Which he didn't here. And neither did Goku when Beerus claimed to be stronger than him, Goku did not verbally admit that Beerus is stronger, he simply said that he wasn't interested in Beerus' position, that has nothing to do with admitting inferiority.
That's not how this works lmao. When someone says something incorrect it's on you to correct them, not the opposite.
I also love how you keep reiterating how the 'manga confirmed it' many times when you completely failed to address the basic point why the manga contradicts it - because the context is based on refining the accuracy of Goku's already Perfected Ultra Instinct, therefore it can't apply to Beerus or Broly. Hardly a coincidence coming from someone with the credibility of -100.
They were talking about power levels overall. The whole convo literally started with "Goku was unbelievably strong against Moro", it was power overall not just UI mastering.
Again, the feat argument doesn't work because by the same twisted logic Goku > GP. Hell, the feat argument is debunked by Vegeta surpassing Jiren but still being inferior to Beerus.
I don't know why you keep going on and on about 'feat arguments' when feats are among the strongest forms of evidence to justify a character's strength. It's 4 posts in and you haven't listed a single feat Beerus has to his name that makes him the strongest.
You are using fact Beerus lacks combat screen time as evidence for him being weak when every time he fought the heroes he stomped them and every single story arc there's an emphasis on Beerus still being the goal for Goku to reach.
Also, Jiren stomps Vegeta. Vegeta barely learned the ropes on Destruction, he isn't beating someone who is superior to beings who mastered Destruction.
Vegeta outperformed a stronger Goku against Granolah.
2 Eye Granolah > UE Vegeta > 1 Eye Granolah > MUI Goku > ToP MUI Goku >~ Jiren
What has hakai mastery has to do with overall power levels?
Debunked in Granolah arc where it's stated techniques of GoDs like hakai can rival UI. Vegeta learning the very basics of hakai made him a peer of UI Goku.
??????
All Beerus said is that UI isn't the only technique of the gods. That dosen't change the fact that UI is the superior technique to UE, or invalidate Whis' statements about UI being the rarest and strongest technique in the mythos.
Context - Vegeta is mad Goku is stronger than him due to UI, Beerus tells him learning hakai would make him comparable again and it did. UI is rarer and harder to archieve than hakai but the benefits Vegeta gained from learning basics of hakai were enough to put him on Goku's tier again.
Vegeta learning the basics of an inferior technique makes him astronomically inferior to Goku, who mastered the superior technique. It dosen't take much to understand something this basic.
You are putting way too much weight into particular techniques when at the end of the day what matters the most is overall power level. Gohan has neighter UI nor hakai, he still blitzed and one shoted MUI out of Goku. Same with Broly. Same with Black Frieza.
That's like saying super saiyan 1 power has been surpassed in android arc meaning Cell can beat current SSJ Goku. Not all GoDs are equal with Beerus and Quitela happening to be the strongest ones, Jiren never surpassed them.
The events of the Zen Exhibition Match quite literally disagrees with you, the fact that they were all down or badly bruised shows that they are all relative to each other. Even if Beerus and Quitela are among the stronger Destroyers, the rest definitely are definitely comparable to them.
Not to mention Belmod, who is powerful enough to seriously damage Beerus to the point that a couple of his basic energy card attacks can make Beerus' face and arms bleed, and he was able to render Beerus helpless in an Imprisonment Ball. If a few ki blasts were enough to cause that much damage to Beerus, then Belmod is at least on par with Beerus (or even above). Jiren being above Belmod mean that by extension, the other 11 Destroyers would also be weaker than him.
Kurilin not only pierced but cut off 2nd form Frieza's tail. Namek Kurilin would still get blitzed and pulverized by the same Frieza. Catching someone off guard with TK (which was casually broken by the fox GoD) and going for the kill in a friendly sparring is not something to brag about. After his card trick Belmod played possum for the rest of the fight, that's literally all he did, catch people off guard and launch (pressumbly) his strongest technique only to archieve minor cuts. Meanwhile Beerus was dodging 8 GoDs at the same time, moved FTE to multiple of them, finished off Rumsshi, blitzed and heavily stagger Champa and was the last one standing along with Quitela overall. By feats Beerus trumps Belmod.
From Superhero's Goku's POV all GoDs still have "amazing power".
Yes and he says the same when it comes to Jiren and Broly too. But that dosen't change the fact that Goku is far above them based on a basic feat comparison. Calling them amazing =/= they are above him.
Goku isn't far above Broly, there's no reason to assume he's even stronger than raged out Broly to begin with. He would beat Jiren but that doesn't mean they are in seperate tiers.
"debunked", as in I will cover my ears and pretend they don't exist, yea I know, I know, we've been over this already.
Pretend they don't exist? My friend, I invested paragraphs addressing each and every one of them and why those forms of 'evidence' don't hold weight, that's literally anything but 'pretending they don't exist'.
I find it hilarious that I spelled out your arguments beforehand, and you walked right into it with your response using the same mental gymnastics and eyesore bad faith arguments that I knew you would use, without making any attempt to address the spoiler block at all.
Once again, proving why Beerus stans can't be taken seriously. Your dishonest debating practices are frankly getting tiring, manipulating statements using fallacies and bad faith interpretations to suit your delusional narrative that 'Beerus is the strongest', instead of addressing Beerus' actual feats and abilities.
I might as well be debating a Flat Earther, because they debate the same way you people do: Just like how you people dance and avoid the reality that Beerus' actual feats and abilities aren't up to par with the best, Flat Earthers dance and avoid the reality that scientific evidence overwhelmingly supports the Earth is round. Just like how Flat Earthers create an alternate reality that the Earth is flat, you stans create a fan wanked version of a character that isn't based on his actual abilities, and pretend it's the canonical version.
But you can have the last word, I came to realise that debating a Beerus stan is a complete waste of my time and I won't be entertaining this any further.
Your "debunks" are just ignoring the evidence, yes:
Beerus states superiority to Goku - you: well whatever, Beerus is just egoistical, ignored
Interview with Toyotaro where they state Goku is inferior to Beerus - you: well whatever, Toyotaro is not a writer despite literally posting yourself he has 10% story involvment and literally fills out the massive blanks Toriyama was leaving in his story notes, ignored
Shueisha, partial holders of the IP stating someone (Black Frieza) who blitzed and one shoted Goku is still below Beerus - you: well whatever, my opinion matters more than literal holders of the IP, ignored
Can't forget about brilliant logic about someone not needing to correct lies but having to confirm a truthful statements. That's flawless logic right there.
All you arguments come from emotional response of wanting Goku to be the strongest when multiple sources disagree with that notion. Sorry, but that's the truth and every time a new piece of information comes out, like the one this thread is about, you just dig yourself into a hole even deeper. I guess Orange Piccolo one shots Beerus now as well, huh? Or let me guess your personal opinion of wanting Goku to be the strongest overrides Toyotaro again huh? Good luck with that buddy.
Sucks that we'll probably never get an end to this debate, because after Toriyama's death, even if Toyo has Beerus explicitly shown being superior to Goku they'll just say that Tori didn't write it.
Orange Piccolo could've fought much stronger against Cell Max if he used his abilities. Furthermore, he was nerfed as he transforms twice without a rest while Gohan eats a senzu bean. Even then he can restrain Cell Max and Beast Gohan struggles against Cell Max in the manga. If you consider these, Orange Piccolo is definitely not outclassed by these four even if he isn't stronger than them.
Sucks that we'll probably never get an end to this debate, because after Toriyama's death, even if Toyo has Beerus explicitly shown being superior to Goku they'll just say that Tori didn't write it.
That's the saddest realization I've come to today.
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