Feats for the girls? Arthur is a bullet timer and can use time stop, as can Peter who is an experienced user of super speed with composite feats - almost sonic combat speed.
@alphaq: Rachel is easily bullet timing -> speed of thought depending on what she's reacting to. She's got TK sheilds capable taking shots from Thor's hammer and city busting cannons and with a city holding Tk strength, she's got offensive TP capable of combating telepaths strong enough to control their entire species and can casual shut down minds or cloak herself and others from peoples senses while distracted.
Teen Jean has feats of trading blows with and harming Gladiator, gathering oxygen and 13 people together in a shield before the others realize they were teleported to space and lifting and catching bridges.
Hope is an Omega level power mimick...she has all the powers of every one on the battlefield and knowledge of how to use them.
@koays: Thanks. Honestly can't see how Heroes side wins this unless you assume one of the Future Peter's had Daphne's speed, so he could use time stop nigh-instantaneously (which would basically be a time stop squared). Then he could BFR them to the future/past/nuke them. Unfortunately that's not in character and he's never shown to be good with Daphne's speed (although he does have it and he has master level skill with other, albeit much weaker speed powersets).
@alphaq: Lol Rachel also has time travel abilities.... It's a mismatch. They have some trouble with Peter but its about as much trouble as catching a puppy who knows its done something wrong. The girls outclass
@alphaq: @koays: peter and arthur should be able to gain thier powers almost instantly and both have intuitive aptitude which will allow them to quickly pick up on powers. Hope would have time manipulation as well so time stop may or may not be possible.
@koays: About this being a mismatch, couldn't Peter or Athur kill them when they're young or undo their births or something to that effect? Future Peter could be pretty dark and with intuitive aptitude he's afforded natural understanding of how the time stream works.
Also, just how intuitive is Hope's skill with other people's powers? Heroes powers are quite difficult to master, even people like Peter (who has shown to be insanely skilled even without IA, which he has) and Sylar (who has IA) have had difficulty mastering some of them.
@americanspeeddemon: Okay. Does he get the skill feats of using powers he replicated? Say when he control minds with when he replicated Matt's TP, can he use that feat in this fight, even thought he never controlled minds when he had EP?
@alphaq: Hope Summers is instant mastery. Aside from Ironfist (which was mostly a martial arts guide) she's never had to train to use powers she's copied to great effect.
If we were to get into time travel and undoing births then its a whole different ball game,(though Rachel being born in an alternate universe and time travel past a certain point in Marvel history being blocked protects Rachel and Jean. Pretty much any time he goes back after Rachel she either has the phoenix or is just as powerful as she is now and with Jean she's untouchable since she's an anomaly.
Rachel and or Jean getting their TP stolen doesn't change things since X-Men telepaths without telepathy have repeatedly battled and beaten powerful psychics when they lacked their own powers. Plus theirs still reaction time, since if they go into this expecting a fight then a near instant TP drop will occur.
@alphaq: Yeah skill feats are okay @koays You don't think their own TP skills mixed with the Grey's power will help them defend against psychic attacks.
@alphaq: Hope Summers is instant mastery. Aside from Ironfist (which was mostly a martial arts guide) she's never had to train to use powers she's copied to great effect.
Impressive. Could you tell me how her powers actually copy ? I'm wondering if she could mimic a mimic, Peter and Arthur actually don't have any of their own powers per say (the creator confirmed that Arthur's power is just a more refined version of Peter's). Proof of this would be that Peter could never mimic powers his future selves have possessed, since he was only being exposed to EM itself. Two exceptions are Sylar's telekinesis (which was absorbed differently than any other power in his repertoire) and Arthur stealing Peter's powerset (but I put this down to his ability either being more refined or reacting unusually to it's counterpart).
In summary even if Hope mimics Peter or Arthur she'd be unable to use their mimiced abilities. Nathan 2nd requires touch, so that ability is quite useless for her against speedsters/time stoppers.
If we were to get into time travel and undoing births then its a whole different ball game,(though Rachel being born in an alternate universe and time travel past a certain point in Marvel history being blocked protects Rachel and Jean. Pretty much any time he goes back after Rachel she either has the phoenix or is just as powerful as she is now and with Jean she's untouchable since she's an anomaly.
Well damn, that seems locked tight to me.
Rachel and or Jean getting their TP stolen doesn't change things since X-Men telepaths without telepathy have repeatedly battled and beaten powerful psychics when they lacked their own powers. Plus theirs still reaction time, since if they go into this expecting a fight then a near instant TP drop will occur.
What if they just go back yay many hours when they were sleeping in their beds and nuke them? That's pretty much all I've got to be honest, although let me know if this is too tedious for you ( I know it can be annoying to be tagged repeatedly).
@alphaq: lol its cool... What I was trying to say though was that the petrelli's have superior time travel, but if were saying they go back in time and beat the red heads we could argue that the red heads do the same to them and it basically becomes a time war...with the possibilities being endless. Though again edge to petrellis with regards to that.
There's argument that Hope may not be able to copy there absorbed power sets, but she's an omega level psionic power mimic who has copied multiple magical, mutant and mystical abilities. Its hard to say for sure, though I give it a good chance that she can do it though she's only really encountered Rogue as far a.people with similar power sets go.
If they get nuked in their sleep not much they can do.
The thing is that any direct confrontation the petrelli's are going to get stomped because the telepaths are way above them. With time travel petrelli's options are limitless.
Telepathic illusions from mastermind stopped Xavier and jean. Matt is able to use mass illusions on an entire camp of evos while reading the minds of others and placing others in mental prisons.
Telepathic illusions from mastermind stopped Xavier and jean. Matt is able to use mass illusions on an entire camp of evos while reading the minds of others and placing others in mental prisons.
Time stop
Molecule manipulation
Super speed
Regeneration
Phasing
Lady Mastermind (more powerful then her father) got her illusion powers flipped on her by Teen Jean. Rachel goes to to toe with Psychics who enslave their entire species telepathically.... Matt Parkman's tp is not on that level.
\Rachel Grey has created blackholes and has changed her genetic structure with TK.
Time stop is the only option and even then Hope would have that as well as TP and TK from Jean and Rachel
Uhmm no lady mastermind is not more powerful than her father and she didn't get her powers flipped. She cast an illusion jean used telepath. And when jean used telepathy she said she won because she projects actual thoughts and fears
...you know...like matt maury Peter and arthur
Tell me how many species mastermind and lady mastermind enslaved? Zero
Rachel grey has done neither of those things and if i that stupid dinosaur scan takin out of context again I'm throwing my phone out the window.
@db_king: 1. As per Carey's run Lady Mastermind is stronger then Mastermind. I'm referring to All New X-Men when Teen Jean reversed and took control of the illusion...what are you talking about?
2. Rachel Grey battled Friendless the telepath while in space during X-Men Legacy. He mind controls his entire species. That's what I'm talking about....not sure what you are.
3. So she didn't create a micro blackhole? Or she didn't alter herself on the genetic level? Because she's done both, and even if you dispute the feats there is nothing on that level of TK in heroes. And her feats just under those in molecular to are still far far above them.
4. Their reaction time is less then the telepaths...so Yea it is. And if they freeze time and Hope still has TP and a faster reaction time. They get dropped
Based on what? Lady mastermind got defeated by a self admittedly novice jean
Im talking about the same thing, issue 14, except that's not what happened. Jean didn't take over anyone's illusions. She simply used her own telepathy. And this was after being caught in an illusion.
And which whole species did mastermind and lady mastermind enslave? None yet their illusions worked on Xavier, Jean, Dark Phoenix Jean with tech, sentry and a slew of other people with stronger telepathy.
No she didn't do either. Storm, bishop, sage, wolverine and rachel created a black hole. Storm provided the raw power, sage channeled it into rachel after bishop amplified it and they used wolverine's regenration as to not die. And no she didn't turn herself into a dinosaur. She was getting owned in tp. Why would rachel turn herself into a dinosaur? I still can't believe how many people think that's what happened.
How is their reaction time less than the telepaths when their powers are also based on telepathy or making a simple thought? In some cases not making a thought at all and their powers responding automatically such as Peters telepathy when he met matt?
@db_king: Your using ABC logic that doesn't even make sense. What even puts the Petrelli's illusions in the range of any of the Masterminds? Do they work the same way as the Masterminds, which aren't the same as regular TP illusions? What feats do the Petrelli's have of using Parkman's power to cast illusions? How are their illusions any different from the illusions that Telepaths can use? Do they even have feats to defend against illusions if their cast on them?...because the mutant team does.
1. Ignoring the times Xavier has straight up seen right through Masterminds illusions without effort and that Mastermind had an amp when he used his powers against Dark Phoenix... Regan trapped Emma Frost inside a coma inside her own mind and kept her from using her powers for a time.
Teen Jean overcoming the illusion (while a plot hole we won't get into it) shows that she can resist illusions powerful enough to drop one of the strongest telepaths on the planet.
2. Scans will come when i return home. (in a few hours)
3. Masterminds illusions are not the same as standard TP illusions. Weaker or less experienced telepaths get the same treatment that Rachel gave Quentin Quire (himself an exceptionally powerful telepath capable of controlling large numbers of people at a time) when he tried to cast an image into her mind...which was a oneshot.
4. Lol, check the issue... Rachel (who'd just been punched miles away and returned to the battlefield) starts making the blackhole before they come to help. The idea that she can even start that feat puts her at an incredible level of power. And that's ignoring the battle necessitating a combination of powers to beat Fury. Then theres the fact that her TK also stops them from being sucked in as well. Her next feats in this range after that are molecular TK and holding up a city temporarily.
Please tell me what added context takes away from the lizard feat? She thought she was a lizard girl, so she telekinetically became a lizard girl...weird but thats exactly what happened.
5 The telepaths have reaction FEATS that are faster then their opponents reaction times. Speed of thought in comics isn't a set time frame and the telepaths (again leaning on Rachel for my feats) have faster processing.
6. Maybe...idk anymore. Hope is trained by Cable and Ironfist in hand to hand and has access to all power on the battlefield....idk how to even compare that to Peter because i'm not sure how the time space or absorption powers would work against eachother. A straight up fight favors Hope insanely but theres too many variables an assumptions with this exchange.
No one is using abc logic but you certainly are bias and wanking feats. Mastermind and his kids illusions are telepathy based so I don't know where you're going with that argument.
How about because Arthur has shown to be a superior telepath to matt and maury and peter has shown to be equal to matt? Besides Arthur owning matt with tp and illusions while already inside the mental prison he created for his wife? Peter attempting to do the same until he realized matt and daphne were gone. Can mastermind create entire telepathic worlds inside someone's head? Parkman can and did. No they don't have an answer, if they did Jean wouldn't have turned into dark phoenix and teen jean wouldn't have been tp'd by Lady mastermind.
1. Zero, the amount of times Xavier has saw through his illusions is zero. Xavier saw through Masterminds illusions by not being in the are when he was perfoming illuions and watching his xmen run away from fire thats not there. I said he used tech on dark Phoenix. He didn't use tech on jean.
Arthur and matt did the same thing and to more people at a time. How are you going to call a feat a plothole and admissible at the same time? No it doesn't show that because she did not see through her illusions. Jean complimented her on her illusions. Then jean says something along the lines of havng telepthy means she creates better illusions so she can stomp lady mastermind using tp illuions. Which made zero sense because all of the masterminds telepathy works using illusions but especially his daughter.
2. Scans of things that didnt happen? Doubtful
3. Quentin didn't try to imput anything into her brain. He tried to read her mind. Which he had already done before and after that. Rachel wasn't even able to enter Quires mind while he was maintaining an entire world with three minds trapped inside. And one shot? How is giving someone a nosebleed one shotting them?
4. I don't need to check the issue, you need to check your facts. It's shown and stated without question that her team helped her make the black hole. And on top of that sage and storm were the ones who having the most affect. She didnt turn into a lizard it was tp. This lets me know you've only seen that one page because on the next page shes seen acting like a dinosaur but in a human body..
5. Your argument of my Telepaths can think faster than your telepaths is just a lazy rebuttal to be honest.
@db_king: Lol me bias? Of course I am,....but your still using ABC logic about the illusions. You have to prove that the Petrelli's illusions are more powerful then Masterminds. What your saying is "Mastermind beat Xavier and he only had illusions, so because the Petrelli's have illusions plus a bunch of other psychic powers they can beat these other telepaths that are weaker then Xavier"....which is BS because every psychic in Marvel can cast illusions. Psylocke can do everything you've listed plus some, no one has ever claimed she can beat or cast illusions on Xavier. But by your logic she can..
I don't even know where to begin to dissect "Omega Class Telepaths can't get out of featless psyhics illusions" it's just so strange a claim.
1. How about Mastermind's very first appearance? No? Ok then...
The Plothole for Teen Jean is that it's only briefly implied much later on that by being separated from Prof. X she was stronger then she normally would've been which puts her at a level to screw with Regan despite just activating her telepathy. The plot hole is her power growth as relates to continuity...which is why i said wasn't going to get into it. Idk how i'm supposed to phrase "Lady Mastermind uses same powerset on Jean that you think will work and it doesn't beat her" but i give on this point
2. Is there something else i'm supposed to be looking for scans of? You've edited your comments since the last time i checked so idk
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3. It's not unfounded, Emma talks about his abilities with reverance during New Avengers number 10 when she's undoing something he did to Sentry
3a. Ok your taking issue with wording, my mistake. But your wrong about how that exchange goes down. He reads her mind and then he hits her with the memory of her days as a hound at which point she counters instantly by hitting him with a psi attack of her own. The nosebleed is something that's repeatedly been done since Morrison's run to show when a psychic is taxing their tp or under serious attack.She's even reprimanded after it happens by Wolverine.
I have no idea what you mean by the QQ with 3 minds point...
4. Scan provided...also note that on the second page after she's already started it she's told she "doesn't have to do it alone." Reading the issue gives context to the feat, she had just been knocked across the battlefield and they were fighting an enemy adapating to their energy signatures.
5. Lol that wasn't supposed to be a TPvsTP statement...it was supposed to be a quick to the draw statement. Like battle starts.. instant TK wave or TP attack before the bell finishes ringing.
6. I'm not gonna argue for Hope vs Peter....i've made my case for power mimcry. And accepted the TIme travel hax. i just don't know.
X-girls in a stomp. No one on the heroes team has an answer for their telepathy which operates much faster than anything/anyone I've seen on Heroes. Hope cancels out heir time manipulation since she can mimick everyone's powers here at once, I dare say each girl could solo.
@db_king: Lol me bias? Of course I am,....but your still using ABC logic about the illusions. You have to prove that the Petrelli's illusions are more powerful then Masterminds. What your saying is "Mastermind beat Xavier and he only had illusions, so because the Petrelli's have illusions plus a bunch of other psychic powers they can beat these other telepaths that are weaker then Xavier"....which is BS because every psychic in Marvel can cast illusions. Psylocke can do everything you've listed plus some, no one has ever claimed she can beat or cast illusions on Xavier. But by your logic she can..
I don't even know where to begin to dissect "Omega Class Telepaths can't get out of featless psyhics illusions" it's just so strange a claim.
1. How about Mastermind's very first appearance? No? Ok then...
The Plothole for Teen Jean is that it's only briefly implied much later on that by being separated from Prof. X she was stronger then she normally would've been which puts her at a level to screw with Regan despite just activating her telepathy. The plot hole is her power growth as relates to continuity...which is why i said wasn't going to get into it. Idk how i'm supposed to phrase "Lady Mastermind uses same powerset on Jean that you think will work and it doesn't beat her" but i give on this point
2. Is there something else i'm supposed to be looking for scans of? You've edited your comments since the last time i checked so idk
Gallery
3. It's not unfounded, Emma talks about his abilities with reverance during New Avengers number 10 when she's undoing something he did to Sentry
3a. Ok your taking issue with wording, my mistake. But your wrong about how that exchange goes down. He reads her mind and then he hits her with the memory of her days as a hound at which point she counters instantly by hitting him with a psi attack of her own. The nosebleed is something that's repeatedly been done since Morrison's run to show when a psychic is taxing their tp or under serious attack.She's even reprimanded after it happens by Wolverine.
I have no idea what you mean by the QQ with 3 minds point...
4. Scan provided...also note that on the second page after she's already started it she's told she "doesn't have to do it alone." Reading the issue gives context to the feat, she had just been knocked across the battlefield and they were fighting an enemy adapating to their energy signatures.
5. Lol that wasn't supposed to be a TPvsTP statement...it was supposed to be a quick to the draw statement. Like battle starts.. instant TK wave or TP attack before the bell finishes ringing.
6. I'm not gonna argue for Hope vs Peter....i've made my case for power mimcry. And accepted the TIme travel hax. i just don't know.
Ive already proven Their illusions are more powerful. I assume you're ignoring that as some sort of debating tactic? Mastermind and Lady masterminds illusions are based in telepathy and very limited telepathy at that. Mastermind could barely manipulate the minds of children, (and only children) I doubt his daughter is much better. It doesn't really matter that you think it's bs, you do realize that their are different aspects to telepathy? Mind reading, mind control, illusions, memory manipulation Psionic blasts. Matt has used his telepathy to see into the future.
Can Mastermind or LM create entire worlds? I already said Arthur, Matt, Maury and Peter were trapping people or entered the minds of peoples trapped in mental prions and mental illusions. They also had the added bonus of making you think you've been trapped inside an illusion for years. Matt has created a personal illusion for hundreds of evos while simultaneously reading two other peoples minds. One of which has years of learning how to resist tp from angela petrelli. Can either cause illusions so real their victims body thinks its real? Can he make illusions real enough to make peoples bodies think they've been stabbed and begin to start dying? No one from heroes is featless.
Is lady M an omega level telepath? How about Mastermind? Didn't they both take out Emma an Omega Level Telepath.
1. I was also referencing Masterminds first appearance. Which is X-men 4. It's becoming clear to me that your knowledge on these characters goes as bout as deep as a respect thread.
Like I said Charles only beat it because he wasn't infected in the first place.
2. Something else? What have you shown already?
Rachel cant create black holes and I don't see that Rachel turning herself into a dinosaur. It didn't happen.
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3. So Emma frost saying Mastermind having good illusions to you equates his illusions are completely and totally different? Tha'ts not what she said. That's not how she said it. That makes your statements unfounded.
3a. I take issue with a lot of things. So She gave him a nose bleed. She couldn't even enter his mind. Quire did that while he maintained the telepathic replica of earth he trapped himself, Wolverine and Armors minds. Exactly what Matt did for Daphne and to Sylar. And arthur to his wife.
4. There's nothing you can say to not refute sage, storm, wolverine and bishop helping her.
5. It was wank. Again two of three petrellis have tk and telepathy, saying that the greys hit first is absurd. Never mind the fact that peter and arthur actually have super speed and senses.
6. You haven't made your case for anything. Literally all three petrellis have the exact same power as hope, yet your argument is she stops them with their own powers and they just what, Chill and let her and not copy her powers?
Time Stop, Molecular manipulation, Nukes, Regeneration, Super speed and phasing. Not even half their powers but it's all they will need. Each petrelli solos
@db_king: lol Yea only 2 things this time. Since clearly you seem to interpret things in a very different way from myself.
1. Your saying that illusions cast by one telepath is stronger then Masterminds based on the complexity of the feat. I disagree based on the quality of telepaths that the Masterminds hang with. Does Lady Mastermind have feats of large scale illusions? No. But she has feats of effecting Emma who TP's 100's of people at a time. To me that's more impressive. Let's say Mastermind can't/hasnt "created worlds" but effecting Xavier who can do that and much more is more impressive to me.
2. I'm recalling the information from memory, so excuse an inaccuracy, but the fact that your arguing that telepaths from Heroes are on the level of people with easily planetary tp based on illusion feats points more to the fact that your the one who's picked up a few respect threads as opposed to following the growth and story of the mutants through the comics. Its not really important, just a potential reason for why we diverge so far on the TP issue and why you seem to disagree with the generally accepted and over debated way the X-Men TP's work. Again POSSIBLE, since I don't know where your coming.
I interpet things as they happened and you seem to just make some stuff up.
1. I've said multiple times now that mastermind and lady mastermind don't have telepathic feats anywhere near the level of people their illusions have fooled. Their illusions are telepathic based. More than one aspect of power to telepathy.
2. Your argument for 2 is the same as your argument for 1. Emma, charles and jean can do god like stuff with tp and still got owned by a tp user who can barely erase a memory in a child's mind. And matt and arthur and Peter are better illusionist and telepaths than mastermind or lady mastermind. And their powers stomp regardless of illusions or not
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