Kizaru is light-speed with his very basic functions of light, he's able to kick and move his body at said speeds, but also fire attacks at such speeds.
The Pacifista lasers replicate Kizaru's lasers thus also granting them light-speed properties. The speed meta starts at Pre-Timeskip with Zoro dodging Light-Speed lasers deprived from Kizaru's fruit, in a state that Kuma established as him being on the "verge of death" and for Zoro to do this, someone who isn’t even the strongest of the crew let alone in his massively weakened state. Luffy is even faster than Zoro during Pre-Timeskip and yet Byrnndi World has a Devil-Fruit power that lets him increase things several times their power, from 10x, 20x 50x and most notably 100x, making whatever he decides to increase faster and bigger by that amount. Throughout the majority of his fight with Luffy, Byrnndi was significantly stronger and faster than Luffy already just normally, but having increased his speed by dozens where Luffy couldn’t compare to the disparity grew larger, that changed when Luffy got stronger throughout his fight with Byrnndi allowing him to tag and straight up outspeed Byrnndi towards the point Byrnndi needed to increase his speed by 100 times just to keep up, but that still wasn’t enough to outspeed Luffy. Quite frankly, what scaling do you have above Pre-Timeskip characters that benefit from 100x LS scaling, let alone the Warlords here who would embarrass Pre-Timeskip Strawhats.
So it got me thinking, is One Piece MFTL now or is it still perceived as just above lightspeed at best? Is is slower than lightspeed you think? Thoughts.
Barely FTL is not the consensus, it's comfortably FTL.
Mr I also is correct, Kizaru accelerated to a level he blitzed someone who was previously on par with him, he blitzed him through precog and like a kilometer distance.
Barely FTL is not the consensus, it's comfortably FTL.
Mr I also is correct, Kizaru accelerated to a level he blitzed someone who was previously on par with him, he blitzed him through precog and like a kilometer distance.
So what does that mean exactly? MFTL is like double digit or more FTL. Barely FTL is right below or single digits. So which is it and PROOF its what you say? Any actual facts here and not assumptions?
Doesn't MFTL require some interplanetary travel speed showings (character can travel between planets at very fast speeds) or something I don't really understand what MFTL is tbh but people bring it up a lot when a character shows something interplanetary in speed.
Doesn't MFTL require some interplanetary travel speed showings (character can travel between planets at very fast speeds) or something I don't really understand what MFTL is tbh but people bring it up a lot when a character shows something interplanetary in speed.
If you can travel 10 times or 100 times speed of light you can travel interplanetary distance in reasonable times. thousands of planets outside our solar system are estimated around 32 lightyears average distance. Aat 10 times speed of light, 3 years to reach. At 100, times speed of light way less than a year.
@sirfizzwhizz: I see as for the question from what I found he's getting the type of "100x speed of light" because of a non-canon character who can amp himself x100 and trying to scale canon luffy to that lol.
Though Light speed characters are a thing in OP that's only Kizaru and Germa technology and IIRC Katakuri blitz all the Germa members who have light-speed weapons and movement speed in all honestly pre timekip Lluffy reaching FTL might not make sense but then again that's all reaction speed even Whitebeard only reaction speed in LS.
So what does that mean exactly? MFTL is like double digit or more FTL. Barely FTL is right below or single digits. So which is it and PROOF its what you say? Any actual facts here and not assumptions?
Kizaru can be multiple times his baseline speed. The baseline and the multiplier is entirely on you.
So what does that mean exactly? MFTL is like double digit or more FTL. Barely FTL is right below or single digits. So which is it and PROOF its what you say? Any actual facts here and not assumptions?
Kizaru can be multiple times his baseline speed. The baseline and the multiplier is entirely on you.
So basically fan bias/haters bias assumptions. Thats useful for debating....
@sirfizzwhizz: I see as for the question from what I found he's getting the type of "100x speed of light" because of a non-canon character who can amp himself x100 and trying to scale canon luffy to that lol.
@sirfizzwhizz: I see as for the question from what I found he's getting the type of "100x speed of light" because of a non-canon character who can amp himself x100 and trying to scale canon luffy to that lol.
@sirfizzwhizz: I see as for the question from what I found he's getting the type of "100x speed of light" because of a non-canon character who can amp himself x100 and trying to scale canon luffy to that lol.
Non canon?! Damn....
He argues it as canon.
So is it canon or not? Or is this a game of "I can argue it as canon, nothing says it is not canon" kind of thing.
Either way if a "questionable" canon/not canon source is what his whole argument of chain scaling Speed to MFTL is base on, its a weak argument to begin with.
Stated fact and Visual fact in official canon source >>>>>>>>>> Chain Scaling official canon source >>>>>>>>>>> Stated fact and Visual fact in questionable canon source >>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain Scaling questionable canon source.
@sirfizzwhizz: I see as for the question from what I found he's getting the type of "100x speed of light" because of a non-canon character who can amp himself x100 and trying to scale canon luffy to that lol.
Non canon?! Damn....
He argues it as canon.
So is it canon or not? Or is this a game of "I can argue it as canon, nothing says it is not canon" kind of thing.
Either way if a "questionable" canon/not canon source is what his whole argument of chain scaling Speed to MFTL is base on, its a weak argument to begin with.
Stated fact and Visual fact in official canon source >>>>>>>>>> Chain Scaling official canon source >>>>>>>>>>> Stated fact and Visual fact in questionable canon source >>>>>>>>>>>>> Chain Scaling questionable canon source.
Don't really care, he thinks the source is canon, so he uses it, if you want to debate him on why it's canon then it would matter.
Dodging light beams does not make you light speed. The concept of speed has more depth to it than that, so when it comes to pre-timeskip characters dodging light beams (like Zoro), it essentially does not make them light speed. You do not have to be faster or as fast as the object you're dodging in order to dodge it.
During the Marineford arc, Gear 2nd Luffy was blitzed by Kizuru with a light speed kick. The same Luffy that's relative to Zoro, Sanji, Lucci, etc.
There's also seems to be a misconception that Kizuru is constantly moving at the speed of light everytime he attacks. He isn't. It's only when he uses his devil fruit that he's going at light speed, which isn't a constant thing he does when fighting. He also uses his devil fruit to travel distances with moves like "Sacred Yata Mirror", a move that essentially allows him to travel at light speed within certain distances. This automatically shuts down any light speed arguments. If Kizuru was faster than light he wouldn't need his devil fruit to do the trivial.
At the end of the day the voting poll doesn't matter because 15 billion people can disagree with the factuality of One Piece characters not being light speed and that still wouldn't sway the facts from reigning superior.
@mr_ingenuity: Only up to light speed via devil fruit. The fact that he has to accelerate already disproves that he isn't light speed since he isn't constantly doing this in combat nor he is able to do so if he wanted to.
The Vivre card shown also disproves any ideas of One piece characters being light speed.
Kizuru is said the be the fastest out of the 3 admirals (it's obviously because of his devil fruit). Pre-timeskip Luffy would get blitzed horrendously by any Admiral tier character. So based on that post with Kizaru's vivre card mentioned there is no type of scaling that can make these characters light speed. Using vague multipliers (like 20x 40x 50x 60x) essentially does nothing in order to help anyone using such methods.
Also narratively Admirals are relative to Emperors. Kizuru is the fastest because of his devil fruit. Now one might think "So since this is the case Kizuru can blitz anyone and therefore he would be the strongest". Except no. Reacting to light speed attacks doesn't mean you have to be light speed or faster. These characters are fast enough (not light speed/emphasis on "fast enough") to react to such things on top having Observation haki, Advance observation Haki, heightened senses, and skill in aim-dodging.
These characters are well above mach speed and add all of the attributes I named above and dodging and reacting to light speed attacks isn't a major issue. To go even further, one wouldn't even need to be mach speed to do such things on top of all that.
Since Kizaru cannot move at light speed constantly, and considering the durability of other Admirals and Emperors along with their existing attributes, dodging and reacting to linear light speed attacks would not be a major issue.
@legendon: also something if kizaru could go faster then light how come he’s never once mentioned this and all his statements are how he can attack at light speed
Even the scene people talk about the acceleration he doesn’t even mention he’s going ftl I think people heavily miss interpret that and make things worse even if you granted him moving ftl there that was basically 1 scene he was still keeping up with g4 and g5 without accelerating meaning he’d be blitzed in base if everyone was casual ftl
SoL sounds reasonable, based on Kizaru and Kuma their previous statements. Dunno if there are actually faster characters, i think more like that keeping up or suprising Kizaru results more in the context of his Devil Fruit and potential Opponents with advantaged Haki. Let us go with FTL scaling at the very best, while MFTL is no option.
Only up to light speed via devil fruit. The fact that he has to accelerate already disproves that he isn't light speed since he isn't constantly doing this in combat nor he is able to do so if he wanted to.
This makes no sense. He accelerated because he needed to exceed light-speed. Kizaru can instantly reach light-speeds, he doesn't need to accelerate towards it. You also created the notion that in combat he isn't consistently that fast, but you're wrong. Kizaru moves by shifting his photons to reach his intended spot, this is what him moving looks like to people slower than him:
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The Vivre card shown also disproves any ideas of One piece characters being light speed.
No it doesn't, now that we know Kizaru can get faster, it has no barring. Kizaru easily had significantly FTL feats even prior to Egghead. With Yata Mirror, Kizaru sends out light first, then converts himself to photons to reach his targeted destination in the path of Yata-Mirror
One Piece: 510
This is a speed feat in itself because the light that fires out with Yata-Mirror never reaches the opponent until Kizaru himself converts himself to photons in the path of Yata-Mirror and travels over that distance to complete the attack, we know that the photons Kizaru physically converts to explicitly travel over that distance because Rayleigh was able to stop Kizaru from physically traveling over the distance he fired off Yata-Mirror despite transforming into the photons and following the path of Yata-Mirror, this means Kizaru moves faster than his own propelled light starting at the position he fired Yata-Mirror from but where it’s meters from tagging the person he’s targeting. The whole concept of Kizaru’s attack power has to make him FTL. “Speed is weight” is essentially saying more speed results in greater force, this is a key factor to Kizaru’s speed and how he applies it to generate force. The concept has been mentioned by characters like Sanji who woulda y'know also possess immense speed, resulting in greater kicking power. This is weaponized and the entire reasoning why Kizaru can output the level of kicks he does, so thefasterthe attack, thestrongerthe output, this reflects onto Kizaru’s light-speed kicks which when first used on Hawkins sent him colliding intoa single building without going very farbut when kicking Urouge, a character who’s physically superior to Hawkins (meaning kicking him is far more difficult) was sentseveral meters away, crashing into more than one building, this only being possible if Kizaru increased the speed behind his kicks.
Using vague multipliers (like 20x 40x 50x 60x) essentially does nothing in order to help anyone using such methods.
Ah yes, because someone who's stated directly to increase his speed by 100x has a vague multiplier.
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This is what we're calling vague.
Also narratively Admirals are relative to Emperors. Kizuru is the fastest because of his devil fruit. Now one might think "So since this is the case Kizuru can blitz anyone and therefore he would be the strongest". Except no. Reacting to light speed attacks doesn't mean you have to be light speed or faster. These characters are fast enough (not light speed/emphasis on "fast enough") to react to such things on top having Observation haki, Advance observation Haki, heightened senses, and skill in aim-dodging.
Idk why anyone thinks this is an argument. Using CoO doesn't discredit anything because you still have to be fast enough. So guess what? When someone like Luffy effortlessly dodges and calls Light-speed attacks with CoO slow, but an even stronger Luffy with a more advanced version of CoO can't do the same to a character, in fact they're too fast for him to treat such speed like fodder...his name is Kaido. The fact is, you can blitz CoO and if you can blitz CoO, you operate above the speed they're normally capable of dealing with. Obviously a Pre-timeskip Zoro dodging light-speed attacks even with pure reactions supplements as a scaling chain.
Certain characters aren't that fast (MHS+) but have precognition (sometimes powerful they can into the future) so it all really balances out narratively
I've personally never really been a believer in MFTL+ One piece but maybe that's just me
You're doing a lot of reaching while assuming Kizuru is light speed without his devil fruit. He hasn't executed any light speed movement unless he uses his devil fruit. There's nothing prior to what he has done to support that notion.
Alongside that, everything you said immediately backfires due to the fact that Kizuru still uses his devil fruit in order to achieve light speed movement. His devil fruit wouldn't be that useful if that was the case, yet he uses it ever so often to achieve such speeds during combat.
To first get the mud out of the way, Kizuru is not light speed just because he's made of photons. That's not how Devil fruits operate. To achieve such speeds one would have to actively use the devil fruit's abilities.
Enel for one is a example of that. Throughout Skypiea in order for him to travel certain distances he needs to actively use his devil fruit, which is only lightning speed at best due to the fact that it's literally lightning. So that essentially means Enel is not lightning speed when it comes to actual combat unless he actively uses his devil fruit in the process of attacking his opponent. If Enel was naturally that fast then he wouldn't have the need to use his devil fruit to travel certain distances or boost his attack speed in any way.
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"This makes no sense. He accelerated because he needed to exceed light-speed. Kizaru can instantly reach light-speeds, he doesn't need to accelerate towards it. You also created the notion that in combat he isn't consistently that fast, but you're wrong. Kizaru moves by shifting his photons to reach his intended spot, this is what him moving looks like to people slower than him"
That’s a false assumption. Kizaru isn’t light speed to begin with. You’re putting too much emphasis on ‘acceleration.’ All he’s doing is accelerating to light speed because he’s actively using his Devil Fruit, which is literally only light speed. He’s not using his Devil Fruit to move faster than light speed, as its maximum speed is light speed because it is light itself.
Kizuru has multiple ways in using his devil fruit and depending on the medium in which light travels through, it can be slower or faster compared to others (which at the end of the day is still light speed). The 2 examples you're using is essentially what Enel has done during Skypiea. He's using his devil fruit to move that fast in which his devil fruit is only light speed at best. This still supports the fact that Kizuru isn't that fast unless he actively uses his devil fruit (which is something he cannot do constantly with every attack).
When he uses it in the air he's not going at the max speed of light, but is still going at light speed. When he uses "Sacred Yata Mirror" he is going at the maximum speed of light because he creates a pathway made of light in order for himself to go through. What all this means is that compared to him moving at light speed in the air he essentially is going faster due to moving through a different medium that essentially makes him capable of moving at the maximum speed of light possible.
The speed of light in air is slower than speed of light in a vacuum. He uses the light path to reach the max speed of light. At the end of day they're both light speed in which no character is that fast within the series and the fact that Kizuru has to use these methods with his devil fruit shows that he isn't light speed to begin with. Especially faster than light, which is absurd.
So when Kizuru is talking about acceleration this is essentially what he's talking about. It's why "Sacred Yata Mirror" exist. Also Kizuru using his devil fruit isn't a speed feat. It's not his raw speed, so it's not something to put on a pedestal.
Kizaru mentions that acceleration is power, which is true. However, he can also kick as hard as he wants without using his Devil Fruit. When he kicked Urouge, he simply applied more force compared to when he kicked Hawkins, while also adding the speed of light to it. The light-speed kicks he used were always and only at light speed; he is not stacking speed on top of it to make it go faster than light. As an Admiral, he can hit as hard as he wants with or without his Devil Fruit, but it would be much slower (and I'm not even mentioning Haki that allows him to hit even harder on top of that). His Vivre Card also mentions that he can move at light speed, not faster than light. Your interpretation is incorrect due to a misunderstanding of how speed works and a misinterpretation of what is being said.
There isn’t even a reason for me to go over everything you said in detail, as Kizaru is literally the kryptonite to your flawed argument. Adding Sanji, Rayleigh, Luffy, or any other characters doesn’t matter since they’re not light speed to begin with. Boosting your speed 100x means nothing because it’s still not light speed, which essentially makes it vague. You can’t use it to specifically say this ‘Random One Piece character’ is faster than light because they can increase their speed 100x the norm. At the end of the day, it’s still slower than Kizaru using his Devil Fruit. So, like I said, using such methods to make these guys light speed helps nobody. Going back to the Vivre Card, it literally says that Kizaru is the fastest out of the three Admirals because of his Glint-Glint Fruit, which is essentially light itself and only reaches light speed at max because it’s literally light. Byrnndi is immensely below that tier. Stop using him.
Chain scaling doesn’t work when dodging light-speed attacks because it does not make you light speed to begin with. It isn’t something to put on a pedestal when it’s a feat almost anyone can do. Luffy calling a linear light beam that he can easily aim-dodge via his own skill with immense raw speed (nowhere near light speed), heightened senses, and Observation Haki isn’t something to put on a pedestal. Speaking of Luffy, him mentioning how such an attack was slow doesn’t mean much, considering he dodged Foxy’s attacks with ease pre-timeskip but still got hit by a light-speed kick during the Marineford arc.
Understand how speed works. One does not need to be faster or as fast as an object to dodge it. That’s not how speed works. Speed is not that straightforward. It’s deeper than that—deep yet easy to understand. So I’m going to keep using the argument because it’s a fact. Even if the planet Earth disappears, it will still be a solid argument no matter who thinks ill of it.
Kizuru's words >> Your misinterpretation. Speed of light. Not faster than light.
At least FTL. I try to take a more conservative approach to scaling this series but Kaido in Chapter 1001 was directly stated to be too fast for Luffy, while the Pacifista lasers were too slow for a drastically weaker Luffy.
And even if you ignore laser scaling all together, the difference in speed between top tiers and the pre-timeskip lightning timers is nonsensical to the point that if they aren’t FTL on that alone, they’re extremely relativistic.
Kizaru never actually stated he can go ftl and contradicts his other statements it also would only apply to that feat meaning even if you say he can go ftl it’s only when accelerating meaning the people who he kept up with in base scales below light
Even non relevant mid tiers like Niji and Germa Suits are light speed.
And even mid tiers like Sentomaru are fast enough to block Kizaru's regular light speed kick. Which was also a named attack. And not just regular no named stationary light speed kick he used on below mid tier pre-skip Hawkins.
I don't know if Oda intentionally wants them to be "mftl" (as in 100x) but there are feats like Katakuri dodging Snakeman's Black Mamba multiple faster then light punches from close range while they changed angles on him and contentiously increase in speed that can be calced there.
But they're definitely a good deal faster then light considering characters with this type of scaling and feats have been power cliffed.
You're doing a lot of reaching while assuming Kizuru is light speed without his devil fruit. He hasn't executed any light speed movement unless he uses his devil fruit. There's nothing prior to what he has done to support that notion.
Strawman. I didn't say that, he is light-speed with his fruit and faster. So this:
Alongside that, everything you said immediately backfires due to the fact that Kizuru still uses his devil fruit in order to achieve light speed movement. His devil fruit wouldn't be that useful if that was the case, yet he uses it ever so often to achieve such speeds during combat.
To first get the mud out of the way, Kizuru is not light speed just because he's made of photons. That's not how Devil fruits operate. To achieve such speeds one would have to actively use the devil fruit's abilities.
Is nothing but you fighting a ghost argument. That's okay though, we make mistakes so let me break it down clearer for you. Kizaru enables himself to move at light-speed casually by shifiting his photons place to place, for example, if Kizaru wants to move 2 meters, he can move 2 meters at light-speed by scattering his photons, which he does in the examples I showed you:
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To people who are slower than him, they cannot perceive him breaking down into photons because he does this at light-speeds and can go even faster.
Enel for one is a example of that. Throughout Skypiea in order for him to travel certain distances he needs to actively use his devil fruit, which is only lightning speed at best due to the fact that it's literally lightning. So that essentially means Enel is not lightning speed when it comes to actual combat unless he actively uses his devil fruit in the process of attacking his opponent. If Enel was naturally that fast then he wouldn't have the need to use his devil fruit to travel certain distances or boost his attack speed in any way.
Yeah, this is irrelevant. Both Enel and Kizaru convert to their element to obtain such speeds, this isn't what's being contested.
That’s a false assumption. Kizaru isn’t light speed to begin with. You’re putting too much emphasis on ‘acceleration.’ All he’s doing is accelerating to light speed because he’s actively using his Devil Fruit, which is literally only light speed. He’s not using his Devil Fruit to move faster than light speed, as its maximum speed is light speed because it is light itself.
You couldn't be more wrong. Kizaru is light-speed and no one is putting too much emphasis on anything, it's you who has a complete lack of understanding of what Kizaru does. First of all, his devil-fruit DOES NOT cap his speed. Devil-Fruit's are supernatural powers that always and I mean always exceed the extent of their own elements. Second, Kizaru does not accelerate to light-speed. We know he doesn't because with a centimeter distance, he instantly kicks Kizaru at what he literally says is light-speed
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One Piece: Chapter 508
To claim that he accelerates to light-speed requires not reading the material you consume, that is genuinely the only other explanation. What's even more certain on why Kizaru is blatantly FTL is due to him blitzing Snakeman who easily reacting and avoiding his light-speed lasers in close-quarters. It doesn't matter how much you say "You don't need to be LS to dodge light" because this has zero relevance. From several hundred meter distance, with Luffy being well-aware of Kizaru's accelerated attack coming, he still was utlimately tagged.
One Piece: Chapter 1092
Kizaru who we know canonically doesn't need to accelerate to light-speed and blitzed someone dodging his light-speed lasers as well as the visual depiction of him literally spiking as he's traveling this vast distance indication he's exceeding his normal speeds tremendously proves you wrong.
When he uses it in the air he's not going at the max speed of light, but is still going at light speed. When he uses "Sacred Yata Mirror" he is going at the maximum speed of light because he creates a pathway made of light in order for himself to go through. What all this means is that compared to him moving at light speed in the air he essentially is going faster due to moving through a different medium that essentially makes him capable of moving at the maximum speed of light possible.
What are you talking about? You're headcanoning literally everything right now, if I asked you to prove any of this, you wouldn't be capable of. Yata Mirror isn't stated to maixmize his full speed, what is it stated to do is for reflecting off material for traveling over larger distances to which I explained, Kizaru has phases when utilizing Yata Mirror. He fires off the light first, then converts to photons as they travel through the light he fired off previously, blatantly and I mean blatantly outperforming the beam of Yata Mirror. Meanwhile, you're creating this "medium" argument when that has never been the case for Kizaru's ability, he doesn't have varying speeds under a medium, that's why he can fire-off light-speed kicks and lasers regardless of where they're fired, what's even worst is that traveling through a medium doesn't slow light to such an extent where Kizaru's photons outspeed his Yata Mirror when he's dozens of meters away while the light fired off is meters from tagging his opponent. That's a speed feat warranting dozens of times the speed of light, a disparity that makes no sense with your headcanon, adding to the literal fact there is no medium difference in how fast Kizaru's light is.
The speed of light in air is slower than speed of light in a vacuum. He uses the light path to reach the max speed of light. At the end of day they're both light speed in which no character is that fast within the series and the fact that Kizuru has to use these methods with his devil fruit shows that he isn't light speed to begin with. Especially faster than light, which is absurd.
Stop headcanoning. We know that Kizaru is still light-speed, he's not impacted by any form of medium that you keep making up. FTL One Piece also isn't absurd, you're just not reading the series right.
So when Kizuru is talking about acceleration this is essentially what he's talking about. It's why "Sacred Yata Mirror" exist. Also Kizuru using his devil fruit isn't a speed feat. It's not his raw speed, so it's not something to put on a pedestal.
Lord have mercy. Dude, you constructured an entire headcanon interpretation and passing it as a fact. You are beyond doubt not proving anything here, I'm not even giving you interpretations, I'm giving you outright demonstrations of Kizaru outspeeding his light-based attacks. Meanwhile you're pressing arguments that have never been canonical to the setting of the story. The only thing ridiculous is your arguments.
Kizaru mentions that acceleration is power, which is true. However, he can also kick as hard as he wants without using his Devil Fruit. When he kicked Urouge, he simply applied more force compared to when he kicked Hawkins, while also adding the speed of light to it. The light-speed kicks he used were always and only at light speed; he is not stacking speed on top of it to make it go faster than light. As an Admiral, he can hit as hard as he wants without his Devil Fruit, but it would be much slower (and I'm not even mentioning Haki that allows him to hit even harder on top of that). His Vivre Card also mentions that he can move at light speed, not faster than light. Your interpretation is incorrect due to a misunderstanding of how speed works and a misinterpretation of what is being said.
I knew this argument would eventually come around and it's quite frankly dumb, no offense. Kizaru is applying his own strength when he kicks people, it's called his light-speed kick, which he combines with his speed. Kizaru doesn't just convert himself to light and he automatically moves on his own, that's not how this works. It's SPEED that increases the force of his attacks, that's the concept and that's what he does against Luffy on Egghead. You'd have to have the sillest interpretation of Kizaru's powers to remotely push this, respectfully. Kizaru's fruit does not work like me pushing a car proportional to it being geared to drive, that isn't how Kizaru's fruit works nor how Kizaru explained it. So, can you please present arguments that aren't literally headcanon?
Boosting your speed 100x means nothing because it’s still not light speed, which essentially makes it vague. You can’t use it to specifically say this ‘Random One Piece character’ is faster than light because they can increase their speed 100x the norm. At the end of the day, it’s still slower than Kizaru using his Devil Fruit. So, like I said, using such methods to make these guys light speed helps nobody. Going back to the Vivre Card, it literally says that Kizaru is the fastest out of the three Admirals because of his Glint-Glint Fruit, which is essentially light itself and only reaches light speed at max because it’s literally light. Byrnndi is immensely below that tier. Stop using him.
??? What the actual hell are you talking about. That's not the logic or do you not read Fizz's cope-made thread where it's explained why Byrnndi is 100x LS?
Chain scaling doesn’t work when dodging light-speed attacks does not make you light speed. It isn’t something to put on a pedestal when it’s a feat almost anyone can do. Luffy calling a linear light beam that he can easily aim-dodge via his own skill with immense raw speed (nowhere near light speed), heightened senses, and Observation Haki isn’t something to put on a pedestal. Speaking of Luffy, him mentioning how such an attack was slow doesn’t mean much, considering he dodged Foxy’s attacks with ease pre-timeskip but still got hit by a light-speed kick during the Marineford arc.
Again, pointless ramble that isn't actually addressing the argument. Byrnndi would be too fast for PTS Zoro to perceive as he was for his captain, Luffy. PTS Zoro reactions were enough to perceive the LS lasers, meaning the scaling chain is simple. LS isn't FTE to Zoro/Luffy, but Byrnndi is. Case closed.
Kizuru's words > Your misinterpretation. Speed of light. Not faster than light.
Ah yes, surely with your headcanon arguments and lack of understanding of the essentially the very core of my point have you truly proven Kizaru is capped at light-speed--hint, hint, I'm being sarcastic, because you didn't actually come close. I cannot take you seriously when everything essentially boils down to your headcanon and this isn't a particularly good rebuttal, in case you didn't realize
You strawmanned me at the start of your post
You showed you didn't even understand what the multiplier scaling was
You created headcanon interpretations of Kizaru's abilities and limitations
You misinterpret the very mechanics of Kizaru's "Speed is Weight" trope functionally rewriting how his powers work
I might be missing other shit too. It's okay though, you have another try at this.
@mr_ingenuity: I don't read One Piece. Nor should I have to heavily research it. If someone makes a asinine or seemingly bullshit claim, I will use CV experts on the matter discuss it.
While I dislike the good Ole boys club that make up Space Battles, they have excellent use of general consensus to eliminate bullshit arguments and wank in debate making things so much smoother.
@cocacolaman: With Luffy not being light speed in the first place, it doesn’t hold any value in terms of using it as a ‘faster than light,’ ‘fast as light,’ or ‘relativistic’ feat.
It’s not nonsensical to say that they’re not light speed while ignoring every individual laser feat, due to the mere fact that they wouldn’t have any other feats to go off of besides your assumptions and misinterpretations of how speed works. It’s the other way around. One Piece characters are nowhere near the speed of light. They’re not even relativistic, as that’s also a big stretch.
Kaido being able to blitz Luffy is a clear representation that he isn’t light speed. He also hasn’t gotten any stronger in terms of speed at that point, as he was already faster than 1st commander-tier characters, which essentially would make him within Admiral/Emperor tier in terms of speed. Later on during their fight, he is able to match his speed and even blitz Kaido with Gear 4th at one point.
The main idea that I’m getting at here is that one should not determine how fast someone is by only looking at one part of a fight and calling it a day.
Luffy has been hit by multiple lightning attacks by Enel pre-timeskip and was unable to tag him whenever he used his Devil Fruit to dodge. He’s not lightning speed pre-timeskip. Yes, the entirety of pre-timeskip.
During pre-timeskip, Luffy was able to dodge Foxy’s light-speed attacks back to back but was still blitzed by a light-speed kick during Marineford. Calling a light-speed attack slow isn’t anything to put on a pedestal when you gather up the evidence and realize that, in order to dodge something, one does not need to be as fast or faster than the object.
@wushu59: Niji isn’t light speed. The Germa suit essentially has boots that allow one to accelerate to such speeds. Using outside equipment doesn’t make you light-speed. Niji also uses electricity, so none of his moves are light speed unless he uses his boots with it. Not to mention, this isn’t a constant ability for Niji, nor do the boots allow one to constantly move that fast in combat. The boots are on their feet, not their fists. Only when they use their boots to accelerate to such speeds are they light-speed (which again is not their raw speed).
Sentomaru blocking Kizaru’s kick is done with Observation Haki, heightened senses, and his natural speed (which isn’t close to the speed of light). “Aim blocking” is not a widely used term, but it does exist. The fact that he has to block it shows that he isn’t light speed. Even if he did dodge it, that still wouldn’t make him light speed due to all the factors involved in executing such an action.
Speaking of Sentomaru, the vivre card mentions that Kizaru is the fastest of the three admirals (because of his devil fruit) due to his ability to move at the speed of light. Sentomaru isn’t in that tier (massively below it, actually), and Kizaru was holding back on him immensely.
Later on during their fight, Sentomaru was hit by a light beam, went down, and lost the fight. Katakuri dodging Luffy’s attacks doesn’t mean anything. None of them are light speed. The 100x multiplier doesn’t mean anything; it’s not light speed. What calculations can put them at that speed? None.
They’re unreliable at best, as it involves ignoring how speed works. Anything with “PX” involved has no value as well.
Based on the narrative and understanding how speed works, everyone should know that Oda isn’t trying to make characters besides Kizaru light-speed.
At the end of the day, there’s no type of scaling to get these characters within the range of light-speed. Any scaling that comes to that conclusion is automatically false, wrong, and shouldn’t be taken seriously.
@pics: "What are you talking about? You're headcanoning literally everything right now, if I asked you to prove any of this, you wouldn't be capable of. Yata Mirror isn't stated to maixmize his full speed, what is it stated to do is for reflecting off material for traveling over larger distances to which I explained, Kizaru has phases when utilizing Yata Mirror. He fires off the light first, then converts to photons as they travel through the light he fired off previously, blatantly and I mean blatantly outperforming the beam of Yata Mirror. Meanwhile, you're creating this "medium" argument when that has never been the case for Kizaru's ability, he doesn't have varying speeds under a medium, that's why he can fire-off light-speed kicks and lasers regardless of where they're fired, what's even worst is that traveling through a medium doesn't slow light to such an extent where Kizaru's photons outspeed his Yata Mirror when he's dozens of meters away while the light fired off is meters from tagging his opponent. That's a speed feat warranting dozens of times the speed of light, a disparity that makes no sense with your headcanon, adding to the literal fact there is no medium difference in how fast Kizaru's light is."
So it’s clear that you do not understand the facts I’m presenting. Kizaru using ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ is the proof. One Piece follows the laws of physics to a certain degree. Kizaru mentions how speed is weight and that acceleration is power. By traveling through a medium that allows him to reach maximum speed, he is able to gain as much speed as possible.
Here’s the definition of what a medium is since you don’t seem to know:
‘Medium - the intervening substance through which impressions are conveyed to the senses or a force acts on objects at a distance.’
Google is free, and if you look it up, you would know that air itself is a medium. Similar to the speed of sound, light travels at different speeds depending on the medium. Light travels slower in air compared to a vacuum. This is why Kizaru sometimes uses ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ because it allows him to travel through a different medium than air, enabling him to achieve the maximum speed of light possible. This is what I’m talking about. Just because the series is fictional doesn’t mean logic is completely thrown out the window, as the series uses real-life logic to a certain degree and even explains it.
So when Kizaru uses ‘Sacred Yata Mirror,’ he is still moving at light-speed. His moves aren’t just for show; they have a purpose. This is why Kizaru uses ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ instead of just moving through the air with his devil fruit, a medium that makes him slower compared to traveling in a vacuum. Everything doesn’t have to be explicitly stated. Use your brain. We also have bits of this being mentioned, like when Kizaru talked about how acceleration is power while using ‘Sacred Yata Mirror,’ a move that allows him to move at the maximum speed of light while only moving at the speed of light, Mr. Misinterpreter.
Distance has nothing to do with him moving fast. If he used ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ to move within a centimeter, he would still be moving at light-speed max. Light by default has different speeds within a medium. You can’t take that away even if you wanted to. Air is literally a medium. The air you breathe is a medium, and it exists within One Piece as well. Know that. Kizaru fires off the light first to travel within that light. ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ is a tangible path of light itself. With it, he’s replacing air with light to achieve the maximum speed of light. It doesn’t matter if it doesn’t reach his opponent all the way. That’s just you reaching to make your headcanon make sense when it never will. Nothing out-speeds ‘Sacred Yata Mirror.’
So at the end of the day, nothing I said is headcanon. It’s real science that One Piece actually follows. ‘One Piece is fiction,’ ‘Devil fruit powers are supernatural,’ and ‘Don’t apply real logic to fiction’ are all excuses. The series follows real logic whether you like it or not. Fact, not opinion. Kizaru using ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ is proof, air being a medium is proof, and light traveling at different speeds within a medium is also proof. All of those things are proof. No panels need to be shown for such proof either. Nothing has to be stated to you word for word. Use your brain and stop being a simpleton who needs things spelled out.
Light-speed is light-speed. You cannot be faster than light speed when going at light-speed. The vivre card says he’s light speed, and Kizaru mentions how he can only kick at light speed, not faster than light. The proof is against you."
So it’s clear that you do not understand the facts I’m presenting. Kizaru using ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ is the proof. One Piece follows the laws of physics to a certain degree. Kizaru mentions how speed is weight and that acceleration is power. By traveling through a medium that allows him to reach maximum speed, he is able to gain as much speed as possible.
Here’s the definition of what a medium is since you don’t seem to know:
Mhm, totally. The "facts" is just headcanon, Yata Mirror is utilized not for Kizaru to reach maximum speed, but instead for traveling over larger distance while being able to effectively target his opponent as it reflects off any surface. This is the canonical explanation for Yata Mirror like I linked not your again, made up interpretation of Yata Mirror. I know what a medium is, Kizaru's speed is independent of that because there isn't a medium that he can't travel his fastest in. Yes, One Piece follows physics to a certain degree, that doesn't mean making up headcanon on an ability that has literally shown to work independent of the medium. so Legendon, when are you going to post actual evidence that relates to the series?
Google is free, and if you look it up, you would know that air itself is a medium. Similar to the speed of sound, light travels at different speeds depending on the medium. Light travels slower in air compared to a vacuum. This is why Kizaru sometimes uses ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ because it allows him to travel through a different medium than air, enabling him to achieve the maximum speed of light possible. This is what I’m talking about. Just because the series is fictional doesn’t mean logic is completely thrown out the window, as the series uses real-life logic to a certain degree and even explains it.
Uh-huh. Anyway, Kizaru's speed is not amplified proportional to the medium he is as he is light-speed when his medium is quite literally air. You are creating the non-existence weakness that Kizaru's light has when air is not impactful to how he moves. He moves at light-speed while in air, he fires lasers at light-speed while in air, why he isn't impacted by air? Well, that's simple, it's a supernatural ability that stretches the functionality of light! How not-surprising.
So when Kizaru uses ‘Sacred Yata Mirror,’ he is still moving at light-speed. His moves aren’t just for show; they have a purpose.
Yes and that purpose is canonically explained by a source that has more validity than you ever will. Here you go.
Use your brain. We also have bits of this being mentioned, like when Kizaru talked about how acceleration is power while using ‘Sacred Yata Mirror,’ a move that allows him to move at the maximum speed of light while only moving at the speed of light, Mr. Misinterpreter.
You're creating again, headcanon while the series debunks your argument. I already explained to you why it doesn't work in the way you think it does, can you post actual evidence please? Thanks.
Light-speed is light-speed. You cannot be faster than light speed when going at light-speed. The vivre card says he’s light speed, and Kizaru mentions how he can only kick at light speed, not faster than light. The proof is against you."
Yes, the Vivre Card states he's light-speed, now we know he can canonically get faster and know that it's not his cap. You can be light-based and have faster than light attacks, this is called fiction.
Niji isn’t light speed. The Germa suit essentially has boots that allow one to accelerate to such speeds.
Niji is light speed as directly stated by multiple sources.
Sentomaru blocking Kizaru’s kick is done with Observation Haki, heightened senses, and his natural speed
This is an incredibly bad argument.
Even when using a form of precog you still need the necessary speed to guard the attack. If Kizaru's basic LS kick was so much faster then Sentomaru, then he'd have the time readjust his attack however he wants to land on Sentomaru who blocked him not once but twice.
Luffy had to used Snakeman paired with beginner level Future Sight to counter act Katakuri's Future Sight and speed. If speed was not relevant to Observation Haki, then Boundman would be more optimal to use against Katakuri as it is stronger then Snakeman. That debunks your point which is already debunked by basic physics.
Furthermore, no where panel does it state Sentomaru was even using Observation Haki.
And furthermore from that, Luffy has far better Observation Haki then Sentomaru having access to Future Sight. Yet I don't see you using headcanon and saying Luffy used Future Sight before being kicked.
You're doing a lot of reaching while assuming Kizuru is light speed without his devil fruit. He hasn't executed any light speed movement unless he uses his devil fruit. There's nothing prior to what he has done to support that notion.
Strawman. I didn't say that, he is light-speed with his fruit and faster. So this:
Alongside that, everything you said immediately backfires due to the fact that Kizuru still uses his devil fruit in order to achieve light speed movement. His devil fruit wouldn't be that useful if that was the case, yet he uses it ever so often to achieve such speeds during combat.
To first get the mud out of the way, Kizuru is not light speed just because he's made of photons. That's not how Devil fruits operate. To achieve such speeds one would have to actively use the devil fruit's abilities.
Is nothing but you fighting a ghost argument. That's okay though, we make mistakes so let me break it down clearer for you. Kizaru enables himself to move at light-speed casually by shifiting his photons place to place, for example, if Kizaru wants to move 2 meters, he can move 2 meters at light-speed by scattering his photons, which he does in the examples I showed you:
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To people who are slower than him, they cannot perceive him breaking down into photons because he does this at light-speeds and can go even faster.
Enel for one is a example of that. Throughout Skypiea in order for him to travel certain distances he needs to actively use his devil fruit, which is only lightning speed at best due to the fact that it's literally lightning. So that essentially means Enel is not lightning speed when it comes to actual combat unless he actively uses his devil fruit in the process of attacking his opponent. If Enel was naturally that fast then he wouldn't have the need to use his devil fruit to travel certain distances or boost his attack speed in any way.
Yeah, this is irrelevant. Both Enel and Kizaru convert to their element to obtain such speeds, this isn't what's being contested.
That’s a false assumption. Kizaru isn’t light speed to begin with. You’re putting too much emphasis on ‘acceleration.’ All he’s doing is accelerating to light speed because he’s actively using his Devil Fruit, which is literally only light speed. He’s not using his Devil Fruit to move faster than light speed, as its maximum speed is light speed because it is light itself.
You couldn't be more wrong. Kizaru is light-speed and no one is putting too much emphasis on anything, it's you who has a complete lack of understanding of what Kizaru does. First of all, his devil-fruit DOES NOT cap his speed. Devil-Fruit's are supernatural powers that always and I mean always exceed the extent of their own elements. Second, Kizaru does not accelerate to light-speed. We know he doesn't because with a centimeter distance, he instantly kicks Kizaru at what he literally says is light-speed
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One Piece: Chapter 508
To claim that he accelerates to light-speed requires not reading the material you consume, that is genuinely the only other explanation. What's even more certain on why Kizaru is blatantly FTL is due to him blitzing Snakeman who easily reacting and avoiding his light-speed lasers in close-quarters. It doesn't matter how much you say "You don't need to be LS to dodge light" because this has zero relevance. From several hundred meter distance, with Luffy being well-aware of Kizaru's accelerated attack coming, he still was utlimately tagged.
One Piece: Chapter 1092
Kizaru who we know canonically doesn't need to accelerate to light-speed and blitzed someone dodging his light-speed lasers as well as the visual depiction of him literally spiking as he's traveling this vast distance indication he's exceeding his normal speeds tremendously proves you wrong.
When he uses it in the air he's not going at the max speed of light, but is still going at light speed. When he uses "Sacred Yata Mirror" he is going at the maximum speed of light because he creates a pathway made of light in order for himself to go through. What all this means is that compared to him moving at light speed in the air he essentially is going faster due to moving through a different medium that essentially makes him capable of moving at the maximum speed of light possible.
What are you talking about? You're headcanoning literally everything right now, if I asked you to prove any of this, you wouldn't be capable of. Yata Mirror isn't stated to maixmize his full speed, what is it stated to do is for reflecting off material for traveling over larger distances to which I explained, Kizaru has phases when utilizing Yata Mirror. He fires off the light first, then converts to photons as they travel through the light he fired off previously, blatantly and I mean blatantly outperforming the beam of Yata Mirror. Meanwhile, you're creating this "medium" argument when that has never been the case for Kizaru's ability, he doesn't have varying speeds under a medium, that's why he can fire-off light-speed kicks and lasers regardless of where they're fired, what's even worst is that traveling through a medium doesn't slow light to such an extent where Kizaru's photons outspeed his Yata Mirror when he's dozens of meters away while the light fired off is meters from tagging his opponent. That's a speed feat warranting dozens of times the speed of light, a disparity that makes no sense with your headcanon, adding to the literal fact there is no medium difference in how fast Kizaru's light is.
The speed of light in air is slower than speed of light in a vacuum. He uses the light path to reach the max speed of light. At the end of day they're both light speed in which no character is that fast within the series and the fact that Kizuru has to use these methods with his devil fruit shows that he isn't light speed to begin with. Especially faster than light, which is absurd.
Stop headcanoning. We know that Kizaru is still light-speed, he's not impacted by any form of medium that you keep making up. FTL One Piece also isn't absurd, you're just not reading the series right.
So when Kizuru is talking about acceleration this is essentially what he's talking about. It's why "Sacred Yata Mirror" exist. Also Kizuru using his devil fruit isn't a speed feat. It's not his raw speed, so it's not something to put on a pedestal.
Lord have mercy. Dude, you constructured an entire headcanon interpretation and passing it as a fact. You are beyond doubt not proving anything here, I'm not even giving you interpretations, I'm giving you outright demonstrations of Kizaru outspeeding his light-based attacks. Meanwhile you're pressing arguments that have never been canonical to the setting of the story. The only thing ridiculous is your arguments.
Kizaru mentions that acceleration is power, which is true. However, he can also kick as hard as he wants without using his Devil Fruit. When he kicked Urouge, he simply applied more force compared to when he kicked Hawkins, while also adding the speed of light to it. The light-speed kicks he used were always and only at light speed; he is not stacking speed on top of it to make it go faster than light. As an Admiral, he can hit as hard as he wants without his Devil Fruit, but it would be much slower (and I'm not even mentioning Haki that allows him to hit even harder on top of that). His Vivre Card also mentions that he can move at light speed, not faster than light. Your interpretation is incorrect due to a misunderstanding of how speed works and a misinterpretation of what is being said.
I knew this argument would eventually come around and it's quite frankly dumb, no offense. Kizaru is applying his own strength when he kicks people, it's called his light-speed kick, which he combines with his speed. Kizaru doesn't just convert himself to light and he automatically moves on his own, that's not how this works. It's SPEED that increases the force of his attacks, that's the concept and that's what he does against Luffy on Egghead. You'd have to have the sillest interpretation of Kizaru's powers to remotely push this, respectfully. Kizaru's fruit does not work like me pushing a car proportional to it being geared to drive, that isn't how Kizaru's fruit works nor how Kizaru explained it. So, can you please present arguments that aren't literally headcanon?
Boosting your speed 100x means nothing because it’s still not light speed, which essentially makes it vague. You can’t use it to specifically say this ‘Random One Piece character’ is faster than light because they can increase their speed 100x the norm. At the end of the day, it’s still slower than Kizaru using his Devil Fruit. So, like I said, using such methods to make these guys light speed helps nobody. Going back to the Vivre Card, it literally says that Kizaru is the fastest out of the three Admirals because of his Glint-Glint Fruit, which is essentially light itself and only reaches light speed at max because it’s literally light. Byrnndi is immensely below that tier. Stop using him.
??? What the actual hell are you talking about. That's not the logic or do you not read Fizz's cope-made thread where it's explained why Byrnndi is 100x LS?
Chain scaling doesn’t work when dodging light-speed attacks does not make you light speed. It isn’t something to put on a pedestal when it’s a feat almost anyone can do. Luffy calling a linear light beam that he can easily aim-dodge via his own skill with immense raw speed (nowhere near light speed), heightened senses, and Observation Haki isn’t something to put on a pedestal. Speaking of Luffy, him mentioning how such an attack was slow doesn’t mean much, considering he dodged Foxy’s attacks with ease pre-timeskip but still got hit by a light-speed kick during the Marineford arc.
Again, pointless ramble that isn't actually addressing the argument. Byrnndi would be too fast for PTS Zoro to perceive as he was for his captain, Luffy. PTS Zoro reactions were enough to perceive the LS lasers, meaning the scaling chain is simple. LS isn't FTE to Zoro/Luffy, but Byrnndi is. Case closed.
Kizuru's words > Your misinterpretation. Speed of light. Not faster than light.
Ah yes, surely with your headcanon arguments and lack of understanding of the essentially the very core of my point have you truly proven Kizaru is capped at light-speed--hint, hint, I'm being sarcastic, because you didn't actually come close. I cannot take you seriously when everything essentially boils down to your headcanon and this isn't a particularly good rebuttal, in case you didn't realize
You strawmanned me at the start of your post
You showed you didn't even understand what the multiplier scaling was
You created headcanon interpretations of Kizaru's abilities and limitations
You misinterpret the very mechanics of Kizaru's "Speed is Weight" trope functionally rewriting how his powers work
I might be missing other shit too. It's okay though, you have another try at this.
Yes, you did. I also didn’t make any ghost arguments. You mentioned how he used his devil fruit to move within short distances as if that’s a way to determine that his base speed (without the need for his devil fruit) is light-speed. I mentioned how Enel does the same thing. So I understood what you said and showed, then I mentioned how them doing that doesn’t make you light-speed or lightning speed (in terms of Enel using his devil fruit to do the exact same thing you mentioned with Kizaru). Pay attention.
Next time, don’t mention irrelevant information that doesn’t help your argument. Whenever Kizaru uses his devil fruit, it automatically cancels you out. It’s essentially the kryptonite to your argument.
Everything I said wasn’t meant to talk about everything you said. When I spoke about how Kizaru was made of photons, I was adding to the topic while doubling down on that fact. It was additional information along with the facts I presented that countered your wrongness. Like you said, everyone makes mistakes. You thinking I made a ghost argument is one of them. You thinking One Piece characters being light-speed or faster is another one. So stop acting like you’re teaching me something. You’re not.
You merely thinking One Piece characters are light-speed shows that you can’t teach me anything within this topic. I can’t learn from people who have been wrong for so many years (as long as One Piece has been out) when it comes to a certain topic. I don’t know about you, but that’s me.
By the way, so what if Kizaru is moving faster than what those people can perceive? They’re fodder who can’t even use Haki. And no, he cannot go faster. Light-speed is his top speed. So no, there’s no strawman. Stop mentioning information that doesn’t mean anything. Everything you typed at the beginning of your last comment didn’t prove anything. Nothing. Zero. It didn’t help you. It meant nothing. I also doubled down on the fact that Kizaru only goes at light-speed. He cannot go faster than light-speed, period. Exclamation mark, actually.
It’s ‘not irrelevant’ to you since it was the additional information that I was talking about. I just don’t talk about what you have said as I also had more factual information on top of that. So if you think the immaculate, additional, and factual information means nothing, then you’re not meant to be taken seriously. It not being ‘irrelevant’ to you while it is in reality isn’t something to firmly stand on. It’s a mess and it makes you fall apart. If it was irrelevant, then you shouldn’t have mentioned Kizaru using his devil fruit to obtain such speeds. Kizaru can only go at light-speed while using his devil fruit. Him using his devil fruit proves that he himself isn’t light-speed and that he needs his devil fruit in order to go that fast. So next time, make a better argument instead of blaming me for irrelevancy.
Everything that you say is not, is. You’re putting too much emphasis on the idea of Kizaru ‘accelerating.’ I also mentioned how Kizaru isn’t light-speed unless he uses his devil fruit. Him kicking at light-speed is him using his devil fruit. It’s not something he can do constantly with every move he makes in combat. He’s not constantly moving at light-speed with every punch and kick he makes. Only when he uses his devil fruit (which isn’t a constant thing he can maintain) is when he’s going at light-speed. Learn how to comprehend. You’re only looking at Kizaru kicking at light-speed when I’m looking at the entire picture whenever he fights.
When he fought against Rayleigh with his light sword, he wasn’t swinging at light-speed on a consistent, constant level or even at all. Kizaru’s devil fruit is light itself, therefore it’s only light-speed. Adding anything else to that factuality is headcanon and misinterpretation. Devil fruits being supernatural isn’t an argument. Show feats of Kizaru moving faster than light with his devil fruit. One Piece abides by the laws of physics to a certain degree. It’s why Kizaru uses ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ to obtain the maximum speed of light. The only thing these powers can exceed in is power and fighting style. Some devil fruits allow one to gain speed, but are in no way comparable to an element like light or even lightning for that matter.
Devil fruits are only as strong as the user. No characters in One Piece have raw light-speed feats. The Glint-Glint fruit by default has a set speed that it cannot exceed on its own due to the mere fact that it is light itself. Even Kizaru can’t exceed the speed of light as an Admiral (a top-tier opponent). There are just some things you cannot exceed depending on the devil fruit. Kizaru kicking at light-speed within a centimeter is not proof that he can go faster than light. That’s an assumption and a misinterpretation by you. I explained why he mentioned acceleration. Kizaru uses ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ to accelerate to the maximum amount of speed. He knows that through certain mediums, light-speed can be faster or slower. And like I said earlier, it’s all light-speed at the end of the day.
Even if Kizaru was 100 meters away, he would only be able to kick at light-speed. The fact that he needs to use his devil fruit proves that. He even says that. I showed that to you as well. No amount of ignoring can help you within the crushing scenario I’m putting you through right now. Know that.
It’s the opposite. Snakeman isn’t light-speed. Blitzing him isn’t a light-speed feat. Use a better example and a real light-speed feat. Easily reacting to light-speed lasers with speeds well above Mach speed, with Observation Haki, heightened senses, and aim-dodging makes that immensely less impressive. One does not need to be as fast as something or faster to dodge said object. That’s how speed works, so know how speed works. Luffy being well-aware and still getting tagged proves that he isn’t light-speed because Kizaru only goes at the speed of light using his devil fruit abilities.
At this point, I don’t even have to show panels since you’re helping me out here.
His devil fruit is light itself. When he uses it, he’s only light-speed. That statement alone makes every paragraph you typed fail immensely. I also mentioned how through different mediums, Kizaru is able to move at the maximum speed of light compared to when he’s using it in mere air by using the move ‘Sacred Yata Mirror.’ It doesn’t matter how far he is. He will always be at light-speed while accelerating at that speed.
If I have to keep looking ‘wrong’ in your eyes, I’ll gladly do so because I’m not agreeing with someone who’s actually wrong—aka you. You have to be right first in order for me to agree with your misinterpreted headcanon.
Byrnndi going 100x faster than the norm means nothing. Why? The vivre card of Kizuru mentions how he's the fastest 3 admirals because of his devil fruit (that only goes at the speed of light at max). So you can't really use it to determine anything. Plus he has any light-speed feats. Dodging light-beams does not make you light-speed, so using that is also void.
And again Kizuru's words > Your misintertation. Kizuru's words, his vivre card, and knowing how speed works isn't headcanon. They're all stepping stones in order to come to a factual conclusion that One Piece are not light-speed. You can be sarcastic, seriously, and dumb. It really doesn't since everything I said remains right regardless of how you feel and say. With you being wrong back to back you don't have to tell me I'm sarcastic. Even if you agreed with me I still wouldn't respect you since you agreed to wrongness from the get go. I don't respect people who disagree with the facts or come to nonsensical conclusions before actually learning what they're trying to talk about.
Keep adding bullet points while I remain correct. Terms like strawman do not matter and facts are not misinterpretations and headcanon. I don't have to try again when I'm right already. That "It's ok, you can try again" talk isn't working here. When I spit the facts to someone multiple times that's it. 3-6x max. I'm not going to try to persuade you to agree with facts. That's dummy work and I'm not doing that.
@wushu59: Why did you ignore the part where I mentioned how he has boots that allows him to accelerate to light-speed? The statements has more to it then meets the eye. For one, Niji doesn't fight that fast constantly. That move that he uses is not a constant fighting speed. It's travel speed for the most part. Not combat speed.
Those are sources that I was mentioning when speaking about this as, so that falls apart. That's why I replied to you. Next.
Luffy isn't light-speed in any form, so any mention of him doesn't debunk anything. All of the attributes and factors I mention allows them to block and dodge light-speed attacks. Nothing you're saying is debunking or disproving anything. It's just you saying things. It's not reality. Plus you don't know much of anything about basic physics. In order to dodge something you do not need to be as fast or faster to dodge said object. That's a basic physics rule that applies everywhere and it's something that doesn't side with you, as it literally provided within the One Piece series.
Humans themselves are capable of dodging objects faster than themselves, because our base speed along with our senses allows us to do so. With One piece being faster by default, they are able to dodge things faster than themselves by default, but on a higher pedestal. Aim-dodging and precognition exists as well. It's literally the kryptonite to your argument.
At the end of the day, nothing I said was a bad argument. That is just your opinion. If you know how speed works then you wouldn't have come to such a bad conclusion here. Also, Sentomaru was blitzed by a light beam afterwards. That disproves everything you just said just now.
Haki is also a basic ability at this point. You thinking it needs to be stated shows that you're a simpleton that needs everything spelled out for them. Everything doesn't need to be stated. The series doesn't have to point out 'haki this' and 'observation Haki" that. Use your brain and stop being a simpleton.
I mentioned way earlier how Luffy has observation Haki and so forth previously. Read all of my comments and stop assuming things. This applies to every character within One piece that you guys think are light-speed. I don't have to mention every character and even then I definitely mentioned Luffy. Like how Luffy was blitzed pre-timeskip during the Marineford arc by a light-speed kick.
So it’s clear that you do not understand the facts I’m presenting. Kizaru using ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ is the proof. One Piece follows the laws of physics to a certain degree. Kizaru mentions how speed is weight and that acceleration is power. By traveling through a medium that allows him to reach maximum speed, he is able to gain as much speed as possible.
Here’s the definition of what a medium is since you don’t seem to know:
Mhm, totally. The "facts" is just headcanon, Yata Mirror is utilized not for Kizaru to reach maximum speed, but instead for traveling over larger distance while being able to effectively target his opponent as it reflects off any surface. This is the canonical explanation for Yata Mirror like I linked not your again, made up interpretation of Yata Mirror. I know what a medium is, Kizaru's speed is independent of that because there isn't a medium that he can't travel his fastest in. Yes, One Piece follows physics to a certain degree, that doesn't mean making up headcanon on an ability that has literally shown to work independent of the medium. so Legendon, when are you going to post actual evidence that relates to the series?
Google is free, and if you look it up, you would know that air itself is a medium. Similar to the speed of sound, light travels at different speeds depending on the medium. Light travels slower in air compared to a vacuum. This is why Kizaru sometimes uses ‘Sacred Yata Mirror’ because it allows him to travel through a different medium than air, enabling him to achieve the maximum speed of light possible. This is what I’m talking about. Just because the series is fictional doesn’t mean logic is completely thrown out the window, as the series uses real-life logic to a certain degree and even explains it.
Uh-huh. Anyway, Kizaru's speed is not amplified proportional to the medium he is as he is light-speed when his medium is quite literally air. You are creating the non-existence weakness that Kizaru's light has when air is not impactful to how he moves. He moves at light-speed while in air, he fires lasers at light-speed while in air, why he isn't impacted by air? Well, that's simple, it's a supernatural ability that stretches the functionality of light! How not-surprising.
So when Kizaru uses ‘Sacred Yata Mirror,’ he is still moving at light-speed. His moves aren’t just for show; they have a purpose.
Yes and that purpose is canonically explained by a source that has more validity than you ever will. Here you go.
Use your brain. We also have bits of this being mentioned, like when Kizaru talked about how acceleration is power while using ‘Sacred Yata Mirror,’ a move that allows him to move at the maximum speed of light while only moving at the speed of light, Mr. Misinterpreter.
You're creating again, headcanon while the series debunks your argument. I already explained to you why it doesn't work in the way you think it does, can you post actual evidence please? Thanks.
Light-speed is light-speed. You cannot be faster than light speed when going at light-speed. The vivre card says he’s light speed, and Kizaru mentions how he can only kick at light speed, not faster than light. The proof is against you."
Yes, the Vivre Card states he's light-speed, now we know he can canonically get faster and know that it's not his cap. You can be light-based and have faster than light attacks, this is called fiction.
Denial. I'm not here for the back and forth bickering when I disproved you wrong back to back.
Facts do not need to be approved upon. Your approval isn't needed. So we can go our separate ways while you continue to be wrong till death and beyond.
The vivre card disprove you, the basic laws of physics that the series abides by disproves you, and Kizaru's own words. You also have Luffy who was blitzed by a light-speed kick during Marineford (a character who you thought was light-speed within pre-timeskip) and Sentomaru who was blitzed by a light-speed beam and was down for the count. All of that headcanon and denial is not doing anything for you, so I'm going to stay stress free and reply to others because I already broken you down.
It's time for me to slaughter someone else now. I'm seeing cherry picking, horrible reading comprehension, and all around stupidity.
There's no time to argue with someone like that. I can't argue with an insane person back to back. Time for the next.
Time for someone else to get demolished by the facts besides yourself.
Don't even expect me to reply or read your comments. I already destroyed you.
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